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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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| Post subject: Re: Tough decisions need to be made now! |  |
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| watt price tully wrote: | | rocketronnie wrote: | | Piesnchess wrote: | | Defender wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Defender wrote: | | With us losing Beams IMO there's no way we'll be contending in the next 4 years,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, |
I stopped reading at that point. Utter bullshit.Everyone is entitled to hold wrong opinions but there should be penalties for abuse. |
Are you saying we're a chance? ( think dumb and Lazza) |
Surrender Defender, forgets totally that a mere two yrs ago Port was broke and a basket case on the field. things can change very quickly in football, a good run with injuries, our kids all coming on, our senior guys and good recruting, and we will be back on deck.   |
Lol the key factor for Port was a new coach and a new administration.  |
Ryder has now selected Port Adelaide as his preferred destination  |
\
that should give them the flag next season, hes all they needed. 
_________________
Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| John Longmire is making a late-breaking run to be available to coach. He knows how to get the most out of great talent. Let's get him in, now. |
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Geek
geek
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Location: Jacana
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| Wokko wrote: | Father/Son happens before trades. We nominate and if clubs 1-7 bid then we have to match with Pick 8 (Likely). The first few wont bid, because Moore is like a Pick 5 or 6. This leaves Brisbane, Carlton, Bulldogs and Suns who might bid. Brisbane need pick 4 for Beams, so there are 3 clubs who could force us to use Pick 8.
There is no world or dimension that exists where Mick Malthouse wouldn't take a chance to screw with Nathan Buckley. Carlton will bid. 100%. Lock it in. Moore is coming to us at 8. |
I understand about the trade period happening 2nd but we are still flagging what we want from the Beams trade. This exercise would flag what we would be expecting from a Cloke deal.
I think that Cloke would be of value to a team like the Dogs, enough to get them out of the equation (pick 5) and, with a bit of help, maybe getting #7. OK, so #7 is stretching it, but maybe we can organise something.
As for the old man, yeah I can see him wanting t shaft us and yeah, he is getting close to the recruiting table again. This means he is also likely to be saving pick 6 so he can trade it out to pick 11 and Will Schofield who is, and let's be under no illusions here, a very, very good footballer
Serioulsy though, we don't know what the other teams want to do with their pick. Would GC even be interested in Moore? Don't they have better KPPs at the moment anyway?
| AN_Inkling wrote: | Top post. Though I think the likelihood of us getting Moore with a second rounder is remote.
Good to see that there's someone else who agrees that if we don't get a ready made star for Beams then looking to trade Cloke is an option. There haven't been too many takers for the idea in the Draft & Trade thread  .
We need to do something out of the ordinary to match the talent of a GWS or GCS, and dealing Cloke might be the right move under certain conditions. |
Thanks... And yeah I'd also put our chances at getting Moore for a second rounder as practically non-existant as well. But like I said, he won't be bid top 3 and maybe we can buy out most of the other 4 we need to buy out. It's costly but this might be the year to do it.
And even if we do find ourselves having to pay pick 8 for the lad, we'd wind up with 5 top 10 picks including Moore, instead of 5 top 10 picks and Moore and we'd still (with draftees from either side of now) wind up with a dozen or so top end players coming through at the same time
It all comes down to us being able to secure 4 or 5 future stars for the price of 2. One of whom will start slowing down real soon anyway |
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Harvey
Joined: 15 Oct 2003
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Ridiculous thread. Melbourne/St Kilda esque.
Trade Cloke out and you literally rip the fabric out of the club. Heath was the first player we traded out that still wanted to be at the Pies and look at the potential ramifications with it being rumoured a factor in Beam's departure.
Heath's departure can be justified due to his selfishness and off-field disruptions (another police run-in yesterday). But trade Cloke out who has been nothing but a model citizen, team man and one of our best players and who next? What will Pendles and Sidebottom and Reid think? Maybe they're next? Maybe they should abandon ship before they get pushed out and treated as nothing but a commodity. |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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| Harvey wrote: | Ridiculous thread. Melbourne/St Kilda esque.
Trade Cloke out and you literally rip the fabric out of the club. Heath was the first player we traded out that still wanted to be at the Pies and look at the potential ramifications with it being rumoured a factor in Beam's departure.
Heath's departure can be justified due to his selfishness and off-field disruptions (another police run-in yesterday). But trade Cloke out who has been nothing but a model citizen, team man and one of our best players and who next? What will Pendles and Sidebottom and Reid think? Maybe they're next? Maybe they should abandon ship before they get pushed out and treated as nothing but a commodity. |
Cloke has continually gone in dry on us at the negotiating table, he has taken us to the cleaners in everyone of his contracts, he is also IMO a very disappointing footballer who is prone to losing form for long periods without reason, we owe him nothing.
_________________
Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
You like this. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| magpieazza wrote: | Sounds like a plan Stan, hope someone buys the golden "an".
Sesame street anyone.
Seriously though I like the theory behind it.
Got to keep reminding myself....With every door that closes another one opens. |
To the "perceptive fellow", that new door that opens will lead to hell........ |
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Harvey
Joined: 15 Oct 2003
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| Defender wrote: | | Harvey wrote: | Ridiculous thread. Melbourne/St Kilda esque.
Trade Cloke out and you literally rip the fabric out of the club. Heath was the first player we traded out that still wanted to be at the Pies and look at the potential ramifications with it being rumoured a factor in Beam's departure.
Heath's departure can be justified due to his selfishness and off-field disruptions (another police run-in yesterday). But trade Cloke out who has been nothing but a model citizen, team man and one of our best players and who next? What will Pendles and Sidebottom and Reid think? Maybe they're next? Maybe they should abandon ship before they get pushed out and treated as nothing but a commodity. |
Cloke has continually gone in dry on us at the negotiating table, he has taken us to the cleaners in everyone of his contracts, he is also IMO a very disappointing footballer who is prone to losing form for long periods without reason, we owe him nothing. |
Even if we don't owe Cloke anything, we owe it to the rest of our playing group. If we trade Cloke, we're conceding we won't be a premiership threat for the next 4-5 years. If I was Pendles (turning 27 at the start of next year), I'd be thinking if the club doesn't have any plans to challenge for another flag until i'm 31-32, I may as well go to another club that does. Or a Sidebottom could think, in 2-3 years time if the club again thinks our premiership window is far off, I could be traded with no sense of loyalty.
It's stupid list management and just invites players to abandon ship. Even now, if we can get the right compensation for Beams, we should still be aiming for finals next year with the improvement of a number of our youngsters. If we ever concede that we're many years out from contending the whole playing group will just lose morale and we'll become a basketcase like a Melbourne/St Kilda who are happy to accept mediocrity. A rebuild should be one where you prioritise youngsters over top up recruits but always with the view that next year could see a dramatic rise up the ladder. You never sell your heart and soul in the hope of doing a complete rebuild that will see you contending in 5 years time. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| Post subject: Re: Tough decisions need to be made now! | |
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| rocketronnie wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | rocketronnie wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Defender wrote: | | With us losing Beams IMO there's no way we'll be contending in the next 4 years,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, |
I stopped reading at that point. Utter bullshit.Everyone is entitled to hold wrong opinions but there should be penalties for abuse. |
Agree. Also many here clearly do not know the vast difference between facts and opinions.
We all have the right to an opinion but we don't have the right to change the facts..... |
How many sides does a fact have? |
It IS what it IS.
FACT.
It is how we want it to be in the most negative possible sense......
OPINION |
Ah I see. A fact is what you believe. An opinion is what I believe
You'd do well in ISIS for sure |
Where did I say anythis about a belief??
I think its far MORE to do with YOUR own lack of REALITY than any belief dude. A lack of reality can lead to other issues like your lack of comprehension, just ask your own psychiatrist next time!!!  
LOL!!! |
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derkd
Joined: 29 May 2013
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Actually with Melbourne getting pick.3 as compo for J.Frawley means we will only be spending pick.9 on Moore....pick.8 or 9 is still a bargain.
_________________
"To know nothing of events before your birth, is to forever remain a child" - Cicero (Roman Lawyer/Senator) 46 BCE. |
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derkd
Joined: 29 May 2013
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| Geek wrote: | | Defender wrote: | With us losing Beams IMO there's no way we'll be contending in the next 4 years, with the age of our next crop of guns due to peak in around 5-6 years (and the very strong possibility we'll be adding another kid with the Beams compo) I think we need to seriously consider trading Cloke, make no mistake about the fact we're in full rebuild mode now.
It is very unlikely Cloke will ever play in another Collingwood premiership, and if he does he'll be over 30 and in decline, why not trade him now for a primo DP and a young mid who we'll get 12 years service out of?
Tough times lay ahead folks, tough decisions need to be made now to best position ourselves for the future IMO.
I'll be happy to back Buckley 'if' he decides to take this path. |
You know, I often disagree with what you write here but I'm fully on board with this. Cloke has trade currency at the moment and we need to start trading.
I'm not as big a fan of the big fellah that everyone else seems to be. Yep, what he does well, he does very well. He's a great contested mark and runs all day and presents. I'm sure the players walk a little taller with him around as well. However, what he does badly he does really really badly. His kicking is still hit-and-miss, he doesn't lead up and present like he used to and still gets the wrong end of the umpires' deal. Not only that but we are too predictable with him on the park. It's like Carllton when they had Fev, except that Fev was kicking twice as many goals at the time. Sending Fev up to Qld, got them Henderson and a pick from memory and they somehow managed to look more dangerous in the year or two that followed. Honestly, I don't see us losing Trav as the disaster that others would.
Next: we have a chance to pick up a top 5 or 6 rated forward in Moore. In order to ge the best deal possible on that front, we need to stop clubs 1 - 7 from bidding on him. I think it's safe to say that the first 3 won't bid because we won't match it. Think about it.. Moore might be top 5 or 6 but is he top 3? The Beams decision should at a minimum get us #4 and means that should there be a bid in the top 3, we can pass it and get a bonafide top 3 talent while the team that bid for him winds up spending a prized top 3 pick on the 5th or 6th best choice. So Saints, Melbourne and GWS won't bid.
Brisbane has 4 and will be looking to save that in order to trade it to us for Beams. I would like to see us try and get Adelaide's #9 as well. Beams is a top 10 or so midifielder and has another level he can get to. He's 24 years old. #4 and #9 will do nicely
Footscray is a worry. They have pick 5 and will want a tall. Make a gentleman's agreement with them not to bid on Moore and then do a Cloke trade involving pick 5 and another first rounder. Ideally, we could try and find a deal to get GC's #7.
Carlton may try to bid at 6 but they are also trying to trade for Jacksh and Tom Mitchell. The old coot might want to bid just to spite us but he risks us calling his bluff with the result that they miss out on Jacksh and Mitchell (who wants to play for them) for a prospect that wont come on for 4 years and may not really want to play there.
Just leaves us GC to worry about. Again, you'd be hoping that Footscray could get that #7 from them. I don't know what the Doggies have to offer the Suns and we would probably need to offer up some steak knives to help things along. So it would be a long shot, but let's run with it for a sec coz I'm really starting to enjoy this.
If we could then get a pick in the early 20s (say 23) for H, we go to the draft with (best case scenario)
4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 23 and Moore
We would lose Cloke, Beams, H and steak knives to help get the GC pick
Next year we would be bottom 4 with a chance to top up on another genuine gun. Come the end of the year, Scharenberg will also be out of the medical room and we get our #1 tagger back
2016 would see us heading back up the ladder and let's say finishing around where we are today. Add another top 10 draftee.
2017 has us back in the top 8. Pendles will be 29 and backed up by a squad with some serious top-end talent. 5 top 10 picks (plus moore) this year to go with the 5 first rounders we've had in the last 2 years and the 2 top 10's we should get in the next 2 years. Adams (pick 12) will be 23, Sidebottom (11) would only be 26, Reid ( and Brown (10) 28 years old though admittedly, their durability is such that they might not be playing.
That's 18 first round draftees right there and we haven't even considered the likes of Elliott, Fas, Witts, Seeds, Marley, Keeffe, Frosty, Langdon or Marsh. Who knows what we might get out of Karnezis or what sort of gems Hine/Rendell will pull from the later rounds?
Next: say we lose all of Beams, Cloke and H. Well there's a mil and a half off the player payments right there. Frontload the absolute shit out of everything we can so that next year, we can entice someone like Dangerfield. People saying we should trade for him this year forget that we can pick him up without a trade next year. Stuff these Clint Young or Q Lynch FAs. Get the good stuff. And if we can't get him, then use the AFL's plan to allow the banking of unused cap space to get the next top end free agent. If you got a player coming up as a restricted FA and he knows the Pies have a team oozing with talent and a million backs to spend, he'd be interested in coming across.
The expansion teams will have a stranglehold in the competition in a few years time that will be tough to break. But the list that I've described above, in the financial position it wuold be in has every chance to be the super-side that follows them. Indded, it is overflowing with talent which means it can be traded up on again.
Remember when we didn't have enough talent for the Lions? What about the Cats? **** doing that again over the next 5 years or so
So yeah... sorry for the essay but assuming that Trav agrees to be traded, I'd try and pull off that plan. |
The script reads very well  . To play Devil's advocate for a moment, injuries, unexpected depatures..and draft picks not always equalling the worth...means that scripts don't always go to plan.
_________________
"To know nothing of events before your birth, is to forever remain a child" - Cicero (Roman Lawyer/Senator) 46 BCE. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| derkd wrote: | | To play Devil's advocate for a moment, injuries, unexpected depatures..and draft picks not always equalling the worth...means that scripts don't always go to plan. |
Totally agree but I reckon many posters here are not mature/experienced to realise this fact. To them, we should have won flags in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014. |
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Breadcrawl
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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It would be worth it if you could get what he is worth.
But you couldn't.
You'd be talking 4 or 5 first rounders, or two ready made quality mids and two first rounders, something of that order.
Think I'm over-rating him?
He's the best and most prolific taker of contested marks EVER. By the end of his career he'll have taken so many that no one will ever get near him.
Nearly every year these days, the no. 1 pick goes on a player that the club in question is PRAYING will turn out to be a Travis Cloke. Patton, Boyd, Watts etc. And mostly they don't.
There's no one like him, no one in his league playing right now, not Hawkins nor Tippett nor Waite nor Roughead. Franklin is possibly even better but he is a different type of player. If you need a mark clunked 40 out from goal in a pack of 6-8 guys, Cloke is your go-to man.
Plenty of sides would love to have him but no one is gonna pay what he is truly worth.
Besides which, anyone discarding any chance of us playing in finals or contending for the flag in the next 2-3 years is a pea-hearted surrender monkey.
Can't wait till Cloke's next contested mark in a final so I can remind people that they wanted to trade him because he'd be retired before we were in contention again
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they can smell what we're cookin' |
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OEP 
Joined: 12 Jan 2007
Location: Perth
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| Harvey wrote: | Ridiculous thread. Melbourne/St Kilda esque.
Trade Cloke out and you literally rip the fabric out of the club. Heath was the first player we traded out that still wanted to be at the Pies and look at the potential ramifications with it being rumoured a factor in Beam's departure.
Heath's departure can be justified due to his selfishness and off-field disruptions (another police run-in yesterday). But trade Cloke out who has been nothing but a model citizen, team man and one of our best players and who next? What will Pendles and Sidebottom and Reid think? Maybe they're next? Maybe they should abandon ship before they get pushed out and treated as nothing but a commodity. |
I don't believe we should trade Cloke either but not for your reasoning.
The players demanded free agency and got it, and with it the ability to move where they want. The players can't have it all one way and get the sulks if a players they like gets moved on because it's in the best interest of the club.
Clubs, players and supporters need to get used to free agency and all that it entails. Those of us that follow the NFL understand what the future holds for the AFL.
_________________
A Collingwood supporter since the egg was inseminated.
Last edited by OEP on Mon Sep 29, 2014 7:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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| Breadcrawl wrote: |
Think I'm over-rating him?
He's the best and most prolific taker of contested marks EVER. |
I think you answered your own question.
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kill for collingwood! |
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Breadcrawl
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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| roar wrote: | | Breadcrawl wrote: |
Think I'm over-rating him?
He's the best and most prolific taker of contested marks EVER. |
I think you answered your own question. |
He's 120 behind Riewoldt, he takes 50 a year and he has four more years in front of him than Nick does.
He will pass him easily.
And he takes a much more impressive contested mark than Nick ever did, frequently outmarking 4 or 5 opponents. More often Nick's 'contested' marks are out on the lead and the guy gets close enough for it to be considered contested. Cloke's are legit.
I stand by my statement. Who would be at the top of your list?
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they can smell what we're cookin' |
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