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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Post subject: Re: Tough decisions need to be made now! |  |
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| stoid wrote: | | collie dog wrote: | | BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: |
Port Adelaide probably thought they were out of contention two years ago. Funny things can happen in football. Fewer injuries, players coming good, fresh recruiting and just an ounce of luck can change things. Worse thing we could do is trade Cloke, because trading Cloke would be illustrating that the club has no idea what it doing. |
Only one thing you have left out of that analysis of Port's recovery (apart from the fact they have a better list). The coach. They have Ken Hinkley, we have Bucks. They play the most exciting brand of football imaginable, we are the turnover kings. Until Bucks produces some semblance of a game plan that might succeed we are headed for bottom four rather than top four. |
CD, if Port "play the most exciting brand of football imaginable" (I have a wild imagination, as a kid I used to imagine being Daicos... lol), so, why didn't they beat us only a few weeks ago? I'd prefer to play ugly and win, than look pretty and lose. Also, on Buckley, why too did all the players nearly dry hump him with how excited they were with the win... You don't embrace someone that way if you don't like them...
I've got enough information on what's going on at the club that I know it's not all doom and gloom. I also know that Davoren needs to pick up his game, our players are not triathletes, they play Aussie Rules and need to be trained accordingly. The club loves selling the spin on training... First Butters with High Alt, now Doveren, pushing them to breaking point to make them stronger, sorry, "more resilient"... Both Bill and Dave aren't doing too well at the moment... Overtraining and the wrong type of training is our issue.
Port's fitness guru... lol, doesn't do what is said at the club and around town, the volume of his method is much less than ours, I know Rocket Eade would argue this, because he's one of the spin doctors. Yet Port's intensity of training is much higher than ours. My point is that most of our players would beat the port players in a marathon... but if they were to do 50 repetitive 50m sprints with a minutes rest in between, the majority of the Port blokes would come out on top. Then again, we'd have a lot of DNF, as our guys would probably pull hammy's because they are not used to such high intensity repeated efforts.
Just some thoughts with a few facts thrown in 
Enjoy! |
Yep yep yep. Does anyone know this guys pedigree before the saints? Cos I don't get the decision to hire him based on the saints, they were not poles apart in the fitness department.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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King Malta 
RIP Flip
Joined: 24 Mar 2008
Location: Gettin' Wiggy
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| collie dog wrote: | | King Malta wrote: | I don't think losing Beams adjust the flag chances at all (I currently believe we're 3 seasons from being a top 4 contender anyway, if we recruit well). He's only one player, and as good as he is I do feel he's replaceable.
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KM didn't you want Aloisi out at Heart? Weren't you the one who appeared on TV and said he couldn't coach. You were right then of course. Why can't you see that Buckley = Aloisi? |
 I was never actually on TV saying anything.
And yes, I did want Aloisi out, but i don't see the relevance here. When Buckley goes win-less for 15 straight games let me know |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| collie dog wrote: | | Mate Beams might have several reasons for leaving, but one of them is surely that he wants to play in another premiership. That is not likely to happen for a very long time at Collingwood. |
Obviously that's your ardent bloody hope...............    |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| Post subject: Re: Tough decisions need to be made now! | |
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Defender wrote: | | With us losing Beams IMO there's no way we'll be contending in the next 4 years,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, |
I stopped reading at that point. Utter bullshit.Everyone is entitled to hold wrong opinions but there should be penalties for abuse. |
Agree. Also many here clearly do not know the vast difference between facts and opinions.
We all have the right to an opinion but we don't have the right to change the facts.....  |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| Post subject: Re: Tough decisions need to be made now! | |
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| Lazza wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Defender wrote: | | With us losing Beams IMO there's no way we'll be contending in the next 4 years,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, |
I stopped reading at that point. Utter bullshit.Everyone is entitled to hold wrong opinions but there should be penalties for abuse. |
Agree. Also many here clearly do not know the vast difference between facts and opinions.
We all have the right to an opinion but we don't have the right to change the facts..... |
How many sides does a fact have?
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| Post subject: Re: Tough decisions need to be made now! | |
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| rocketronnie wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Defender wrote: | | With us losing Beams IMO there's no way we'll be contending in the next 4 years,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, |
I stopped reading at that point. Utter bullshit.Everyone is entitled to hold wrong opinions but there should be penalties for abuse. |
Agree. Also many here clearly do not know the vast difference between facts and opinions.
We all have the right to an opinion but we don't have the right to change the facts..... |
How many sides does a fact have? |
It IS what it IS.
FACT.
It is how we want it to be in the most negative possible sense......
OPINION |
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Geek
geek
Joined: 06 Apr 2006
Location: Jacana
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| Defender wrote: | With us losing Beams IMO there's no way we'll be contending in the next 4 years, with the age of our next crop of guns due to peak in around 5-6 years (and the very strong possibility we'll be adding another kid with the Beams compo) I think we need to seriously consider trading Cloke, make no mistake about the fact we're in full rebuild mode now.
It is very unlikely Cloke will ever play in another Collingwood premiership, and if he does he'll be over 30 and in decline, why not trade him now for a primo DP and a young mid who we'll get 12 years service out of?
Tough times lay ahead folks, tough decisions need to be made now to best position ourselves for the future IMO.
I'll be happy to back Buckley 'if' he decides to take this path. |
You know, I often disagree with what you write here but I'm fully on board with this. Cloke has trade currency at the moment and we need to start trading.
I'm not as big a fan of the big fellah that everyone else seems to be. Yep, what he does well, he does very well. He's a great contested mark and runs all day and presents. I'm sure the players walk a little taller with him around as well. However, what he does badly he does really really badly. His kicking is still hit-and-miss, he doesn't lead up and present like he used to and still gets the wrong end of the umpires' deal. Not only that but we are too predictable with him on the park. It's like Carllton when they had Fev, except that Fev was kicking twice as many goals at the time. Sending Fev up to Qld, got them Henderson and a pick from memory and they somehow managed to look more dangerous in the year or two that followed. Honestly, I don't see us losing Trav as the disaster that others would.
Next: we have a chance to pick up a top 5 or 6 rated forward in Moore. In order to ge the best deal possible on that front, we need to stop clubs 1 - 7 from bidding on him. I think it's safe to say that the first 3 won't bid because we won't match it. Think about it.. Moore might be top 5 or 6 but is he top 3? The Beams decision should at a minimum get us #4 and means that should there be a bid in the top 3, we can pass it and get a bonafide top 3 talent while the team that bid for him winds up spending a prized top 3 pick on the 5th or 6th best choice. So Saints, Melbourne and GWS won't bid.
Brisbane has 4 and will be looking to save that in order to trade it to us for Beams. I would like to see us try and get Adelaide's #9 as well. Beams is a top 10 or so midifielder and has another level he can get to. He's 24 years old. #4 and #9 will do nicely
Footscray is a worry. They have pick 5 and will want a tall. Make a gentleman's agreement with them not to bid on Moore and then do a Cloke trade involving pick 5 and another first rounder. Ideally, we could try and find a deal to get GC's #7.
Carlton may try to bid at 6 but they are also trying to trade for Jacksh and Tom Mitchell. The old coot might want to bid just to spite us but he risks us calling his bluff with the result that they miss out on Jacksh and Mitchell (who wants to play for them) for a prospect that wont come on for 4 years and may not really want to play there.
Just leaves us GC to worry about. Again, you'd be hoping that Footscray could get that #7 from them. I don't know what the Doggies have to offer the Suns and we would probably need to offer up some steak knives to help things along. So it would be a long shot, but let's run with it for a sec coz I'm really starting to enjoy this.
If we could then get a pick in the early 20s (say 23) for H, we go to the draft with (best case scenario)
4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 23 and Moore
We would lose Cloke, Beams, H and steak knives to help get the GC pick
Next year we would be bottom 4 with a chance to top up on another genuine gun. Come the end of the year, Scharenberg will also be out of the medical room and we get our #1 tagger back
2016 would see us heading back up the ladder and let's say finishing around where we are today. Add another top 10 draftee.
2017 has us back in the top 8. Pendles will be 29 and backed up by a squad with some serious top-end talent. 5 top 10 picks (plus moore) this year to go with the 5 first rounders we've had in the last 2 years and the 2 top 10's we should get in the next 2 years. Adams (pick 12) will be 23, Sidebottom (11) would only be 26, Reid ( and Brown (10) 28 years old though admittedly, their durability is such that they might not be playing.
That's 18 first round draftees right there and we haven't even considered the likes of Elliott, Fas, Witts, Seeds, Marley, Keeffe, Frosty, Langdon or Marsh. Who knows what we might get out of Karnezis or what sort of gems Hine/Rendell will pull from the later rounds?
Next: say we lose all of Beams, Cloke and H. Well there's a mil and a half off the player payments right there. Frontload the absolute shit out of everything we can so that next year, we can entice someone like Dangerfield. People saying we should trade for him this year forget that we can pick him up without a trade next year. Stuff these Clint Young or Q Lynch FAs. Get the good stuff. And if we can't get him, then use the AFL's plan to allow the banking of unused cap space to get the next top end free agent. If you got a player coming up as a restricted FA and he knows the Pies have a team oozing with talent and a million backs to spend, he'd be interested in coming across.
The expansion teams will have a stranglehold in the competition in a few years time that will be tough to break. But the list that I've described above, in the financial position it wuold be in has every chance to be the super-side that follows them. Indded, it is overflowing with talent which means it can be traded up on again.
Remember when we didn't have enough talent for the Lions? What about the Cats? **** doing that again over the next 5 years or so
So yeah... sorry for the essay but assuming that Trav agrees to be traded, I'd try and pull off that plan. |
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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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I'd do it if the return was adequate.
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kill for collingwood! |
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magpieazza
magpieazza
Joined: 28 Feb 2007
Location: Griffith N.S.W
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Sounds like a plan Stan, hope someone buys the golden "an".
Sesame street anyone.
Seriously though I like the theory behind it.
Got to keep reminding myself....With every door that closes another one opens.
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Carpe diem quam minimum credula postero. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Father/Son happens before trades. We nominate and if clubs 1-7 bid then we have to match with Pick 8 (Likely). The first few wont bid, because Moore is like a Pick 5 or 6. This leaves Brisbane, Carlton, Bulldogs and Suns who might bid. Brisbane need pick 4 for Beams, so there are 3 clubs who could force us to use Pick 8.
There is no world or dimension that exists where Mick Malthouse wouldn't take a chance to screw with Nathan Buckley. Carlton will bid. 100%. Lock it in. Moore is coming to us at 8. |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| Post subject: Re: Tough decisions need to be made now! | |
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| Piesnchess wrote: | | Defender wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Defender wrote: | | With us losing Beams IMO there's no way we'll be contending in the next 4 years,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, |
I stopped reading at that point. Utter bullshit.Everyone is entitled to hold wrong opinions but there should be penalties for abuse. |
Are you saying we're a chance? ( think dumb and Lazza) |
Surrender Defender, forgets totally that a mere two yrs ago Port was broke and a basket case on the field. things can change very quickly in football, a good run with injuries, our kids all coming on, our senior guys and good recruting, and we will be back on deck.  |
Lol the key factor for Port was a new coach and a new administration.
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| Post subject: Re: Tough decisions need to be made now! | |
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| Lazza wrote: | | rocketronnie wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Defender wrote: | | With us losing Beams IMO there's no way we'll be contending in the next 4 years,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, |
I stopped reading at that point. Utter bullshit.Everyone is entitled to hold wrong opinions but there should be penalties for abuse. |
Agree. Also many here clearly do not know the vast difference between facts and opinions.
We all have the right to an opinion but we don't have the right to change the facts..... |
How many sides does a fact have? |
It IS what it IS.
FACT.
It is how we want it to be in the most negative possible sense......
OPINION |
Ah I see. A fact is what you believe. An opinion is what I believe
You'd do well in ISIS for sure
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Post subject: Re: Tough decisions need to be made now! | |
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| rocketronnie wrote: | | Piesnchess wrote: | | Defender wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Defender wrote: | | With us losing Beams IMO there's no way we'll be contending in the next 4 years,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, |
I stopped reading at that point. Utter bullshit.Everyone is entitled to hold wrong opinions but there should be penalties for abuse. |
Are you saying we're a chance? ( think dumb and Lazza) |
Surrender Defender, forgets totally that a mere two yrs ago Port was broke and a basket case on the field. things can change very quickly in football, a good run with injuries, our kids all coming on, our senior guys and good recruting, and we will be back on deck. |
Lol the key factor for Port was a new coach and a new administration. |
Ryder has now selected Port Adelaide as his preferred destination
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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collie dog
RIP Shelby 11-10-13
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Location: Shelby Christmas dog
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^ Yep the new Port administraton and their great coach know what they need to win a flag. Port will win the premiership next year. Lock it in Ed.
Meanwhile, who have we been chasing? None of the big names touted for trades have been linked to Collingwood. All we look like doing is losing Beams for a draft pick or two. That's like a ticket in Tatts. It might or might not come off. But the top clubs don't wait to see if kids might or might not come good. They just go out and get them (Sydney, Geelong, Hawthorn).
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Rain or hail, I wag my tail |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| Geek wrote: | | Defender wrote: | With us losing Beams IMO there's no way we'll be contending in the next 4 years, with the age of our next crop of guns due to peak in around 5-6 years (and the very strong possibility we'll be adding another kid with the Beams compo) I think we need to seriously consider trading Cloke, make no mistake about the fact we're in full rebuild mode now.
It is very unlikely Cloke will ever play in another Collingwood premiership, and if he does he'll be over 30 and in decline, why not trade him now for a primo DP and a young mid who we'll get 12 years service out of?
Tough times lay ahead folks, tough decisions need to be made now to best position ourselves for the future IMO.
I'll be happy to back Buckley 'if' he decides to take this path. |
You know, I often disagree with what you write here but I'm fully on board with this. Cloke has trade currency at the moment and we need to start trading.
I'm not as big a fan of the big fellah that everyone else seems to be. Yep, what he does well, he does very well. He's a great contested mark and runs all day and presents. I'm sure the players walk a little taller with him around as well. However, what he does badly he does really really badly. His kicking is still hit-and-miss, he doesn't lead up and present like he used to and still gets the wrong end of the umpires' deal. Not only that but we are too predictable with him on the park. It's like Carllton when they had Fev, except that Fev was kicking twice as many goals at the time. Sending Fev up to Qld, got them Henderson and a pick from memory and they somehow managed to look more dangerous in the year or two that followed. Honestly, I don't see us losing Trav as the disaster that others would.
Next: we have a chance to pick up a top 5 or 6 rated forward in Moore. In order to ge the best deal possible on that front, we need to stop clubs 1 - 7 from bidding on him. I think it's safe to say that the first 3 won't bid because we won't match it. Think about it.. Moore might be top 5 or 6 but is he top 3? The Beams decision should at a minimum get us #4 and means that should there be a bid in the top 3, we can pass it and get a bonafide top 3 talent while the team that bid for him winds up spending a prized top 3 pick on the 5th or 6th best choice. So Saints, Melbourne and GWS won't bid.
Brisbane has 4 and will be looking to save that in order to trade it to us for Beams. I would like to see us try and get Adelaide's #9 as well. Beams is a top 10 or so midifielder and has another level he can get to. He's 24 years old. #4 and #9 will do nicely
Footscray is a worry. They have pick 5 and will want a tall. Make a gentleman's agreement with them not to bid on Moore and then do a Cloke trade involving pick 5 and another first rounder. Ideally, we could try and find a deal to get GC's #7.
Carlton may try to bid at 6 but they are also trying to trade for Jacksh and Tom Mitchell. The old coot might want to bid just to spite us but he risks us calling his bluff with the result that they miss out on Jacksh and Mitchell (who wants to play for them) for a prospect that wont come on for 4 years and may not really want to play there.
Just leaves us GC to worry about. Again, you'd be hoping that Footscray could get that #7 from them. I don't know what the Doggies have to offer the Suns and we would probably need to offer up some steak knives to help things along. So it would be a long shot, but let's run with it for a sec coz I'm really starting to enjoy this.
If we could then get a pick in the early 20s (say 23) for H, we go to the draft with (best case scenario)
4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 23 and Moore
We would lose Cloke, Beams, H and steak knives to help get the GC pick
Next year we would be bottom 4 with a chance to top up on another genuine gun. Come the end of the year, Scharenberg will also be out of the medical room and we get our #1 tagger back
2016 would see us heading back up the ladder and let's say finishing around where we are today. Add another top 10 draftee.
2017 has us back in the top 8. Pendles will be 29 and backed up by a squad with some serious top-end talent. 5 top 10 picks (plus moore) this year to go with the 5 first rounders we've had in the last 2 years and the 2 top 10's we should get in the next 2 years. Adams (pick 12) will be 23, Sidebottom (11) would only be 26, Reid ( and Brown (10) 28 years old though admittedly, their durability is such that they might not be playing.
That's 18 first round draftees right there and we haven't even considered the likes of Elliott, Fas, Witts, Seeds, Marley, Keeffe, Frosty, Langdon or Marsh. Who knows what we might get out of Karnezis or what sort of gems Hine/Rendell will pull from the later rounds?
Next: say we lose all of Beams, Cloke and H. Well there's a mil and a half off the player payments right there. Frontload the absolute shit out of everything we can so that next year, we can entice someone like Dangerfield. People saying we should trade for him this year forget that we can pick him up without a trade next year. Stuff these Clint Young or Q Lynch FAs. Get the good stuff. And if we can't get him, then use the AFL's plan to allow the banking of unused cap space to get the next top end free agent. If you got a player coming up as a restricted FA and he knows the Pies have a team oozing with talent and a million backs to spend, he'd be interested in coming across.
The expansion teams will have a stranglehold in the competition in a few years time that will be tough to break. But the list that I've described above, in the financial position it wuold be in has every chance to be the super-side that follows them. Indded, it is overflowing with talent which means it can be traded up on again.
Remember when we didn't have enough talent for the Lions? What about the Cats? **** doing that again over the next 5 years or so
So yeah... sorry for the essay but assuming that Trav agrees to be traded, I'd try and pull off that plan. |
Top post. Though I think the likelihood of us getting Moore with a second rounder is remote.
Good to see that there's someone else who agrees that if we don't get a ready made star for Beams then looking to trade Cloke is an option. There haven't been too many takers for the idea in the Draft & Trade thread  .
We need to do something out of the ordinary to match the talent of a GWS or GCS, and dealing Cloke might be the right move under certain conditions.
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Well done boys! |
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