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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Post subject: Re: Deal struck on Iran's nuclear program |  |
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I have a used car that I'm sure you'd be interested in.
Neville Chamberlain anybody?
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ I expected someone to trot out that line, but not you, WPT. 
Have no doubt whatsoever, Iran and America have plenty of hawks waiting in the wings, rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a war. Belligerent rhetoric and stubborn opposition to diplomacy just plays into their hands. It's a fortunate event that the most moderate leaders either country has had in three decades happen to be in power at the same time, and have put in enough groundwork to drag humanity a little further away from nuclear annihilation.
Personally, I would have thought that would be something to celebrate. 
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Cue Israeli bombers in 3, 2, ... |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | ^ I expected someone to trot out that line, but not you, WPT.
Have no doubt whatsoever, Iran and America have plenty of hawks waiting in the wings, rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of a war. Belligerent rhetoric and stubborn opposition to diplomacy just plays into their hands. It's a fortunate event that the most moderate leaders either country has had in three decades happen to be in power at the same time, and have put in enough groundwork to drag humanity a little further away from nuclear annihilation.
Personally, I would have thought that would be something to celebrate. |
Moderate leader ahem. This should not be viewed in the simplistic indeed arcane dichotomy of Hawks v Doves; left v right. We have a fundamentalist totalararian regime. How cooperative have they been with previous inspections? The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour.
Is the least worst outcome the best outcome? I'm not sure it is.
Howver I am pleased that the new improved zealots will only say Death to America twice in morning prayers rather than three times
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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i am not seeing these other countries reduce nuclear capabilities. The emperor has no clothes.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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A much more complex country than is usually reported, Iran is transitioning through post-revolutionary fervoir, to disillusionment (especially among the young), and probably toward bargaining. Unless you are close to the substance of negotiations, and the terms of compliance, it is hard to know whether it is a sound deal. But a recent series of articles in the excellent Prospect magazine convinced me that we need to work with those in Iran who want change, as the present situation in the Middle East and the cancer of
ISIS and Sunni fundamentalism can be countered if Iran acts responsibly.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | A much more complex country than is usually reported, Iran is transitioning through post-revolutionary fervoir, to disillusionment (especially among the young), and probably toward bargaining. Unless you are close to the substance of negotiations, and the terms of compliance, it is hard to know whether it is a sound deal. But a recent series of articles in the excellent Prospect magazine convinced me that we need to work with those in Iran who want change, as the present situation in the Middle East and the cancer of
ISIS and Sunni fundamentalism can be countered if Iran acts responsibly. |
A strong point of agreement there, to be noted for the record books 
WPT, I do fully understand your scepticism if not outright contempt. As long as these things are managed, you have to keep giving them a shot, hoping they gain traction with the sort of shifts Mugwump refers to.
We can't just wipe tens of millions of people, and the generations following them, from efforts aimed at building some basis for further trust and betterment for millions and beyond to billions, no less.
Maintain the scepticism and discomfort by all means, good chap, but these things have to be tried, don't they? And I certainly don't think Israel is going to be abandoned in the process.
My scepticism concerns first the political powers that be, or are lining up to be, in Iran, the US and Israel. But also influential powers such as the Saudis who are invested in tug-of-war for influence over the oil economy.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: |
A strong point of agreement there, to be noted for the record books |
Excellent ! Whatever unparliamentary language may pass over Greece, i do respect and admire your sincerity in trying to understand other cultures. Much though i dislike some of Iran's past conduct, nations change as people and generatins change, and we need to change, too. Not so long ago, Japan and Germany were our mortal enemies.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Post subject: Re: Deal struck on Iran's nuclear program | |
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| watt price tully wrote: |
I have a used car that I'm sure you'd be interested in.
Neville Chamberlain anybody? |
Azaria's dad? 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Are you a man or a woman? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Azaria's dad? |
Stui, really?! Clearly Godwin's Law is not being adhered to nearly enough these days.
In my view, the world is far too dangerous and unstable for there to not be a possibility of negotiation between any two given countries. Nearly every time such an impasse is broken is a win, in my book, particularly when it involves major powers.
You have to remember that, just three years ago, half the field of candidates going up against Obama were indulging in public fantasies about pre-emptive strikes on Iran. Can you even begin to imagine how disastrous such an act would have been in the context of the rise of ISIS? Even having such a person in the White House with comments like those on record would have increased the likelihood of another hardline Iranian candidate being elected (something Ron Paul and others pointed out prior to Rouhani's victory), a couple more decades of belligerent stalemate, an increase of Russian influence in the region and a nuclear Iran powder keg around just to make things more interesting.
No. It might be six or so years after the fact, but Obama has finally earned his Nobel Peace Prize. And this isn't just one act on his part, some Arafat-Rabin handshake photo opportunity, but rather the result of 6 and a bit years of willingness to dial back the aggressive rhetoric, preference for diplomacy over conflict and a willingness (see Cuba) to put old grudges to bed. Best of all, it's empowered moderates in Iran, too. Let's hope that Rouhani can deliver on the promised economic recovery now.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Azaria's dad? |
Stui, really?! Clearly Godwin's Law is not being adhered to nearly enough these days. . |
WTF does that mean? The Dingo was a Nazi? 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Here you go, Stui.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neville_Chamberlain
While he's obviously the poster boy for appeasement, I feel it's an analogy that gets raised wayyy too often. Memo to everyone: one PM making a deal with Hitler doesn't make all diplomacy bad. 
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | Here you go, Stui.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neville_Chamberlain
While he's obviously the poster boy for appeasement, I feel it's an analogy that gets raised wayyy too often. Memo to everyone: one PM making a deal with Hitler doesn't make all diplomacy bad. |
I know who he is, it was WPT who bought his name up and I made the crack about Azaria Chamberlain, so how exactly is it me who gets the Godwins law reference?
Or are you just making assumptions based on the poster instead of reading the post?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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