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swoop42 Virgo

Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?


Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:13 pm
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If anyone thinks the Port we beat remotely resembles the Port of this week then they're kidding themselves.

Chalk and cheese.

People can take the glass half full approach but the simple reality is that Ken Hinkley showed he was the right man for the job last year in his first season while most of us continue to hope Bucks can prove the same thing next season in his 4th year.

He showed it doesn't take a "5 year plan" to turn a clubs fortunes around, even one considered a basket case when he took over, nor does it take years to implement a new effective game plan without inherent flaws to easily exploited by quality opposition.

At Collingwood we're still waiting for that. Hopefully it finally arrives next year.

Port have also showed an ability to get super fit on the back of a single preseason last year while we in attempting to do the same thing ended up with a long injury list that included a number of soft tissue complaints.

It's fair to say Hinkley has raised the bar that all rookie coaches will now be judged against.

He's ruined it for the rest of them.

At Collingwood we simply must improve next season in all areas.

bucks#noexcuses2015

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The Boy Who Cried Wolf 



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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 2:19 pm
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swoop42 wrote:
If anyone thinks the Port we beat remotely resembles the Port of this week then they're kidding themselves.

Chalk and cheese.

People can take the glass half full approach but the simple reality is that Ken Hinkley showed he was the right man for the job last year in his first season while most of us continue to hope Bucks can prove the same thing next season in his 4th year.

He showed it doesn't take a "5 year plan" to turn a clubs fortunes around, even one considered a basket case when he took over, nor does it take years to implement a new effective game plan without inherent flaws to easily exploited by quality opposition.

At Collingwood we're still waiting for that. Hopefully it finally arrives next year.

Port have also showed an ability to get super fit on the back of a single preseason last year while we in attempting to do the same thing ended up with a long injury list that included a number of soft tissue complaints.

It's fair to say Hinkley has raised the bar that all rookie coaches will now be judged against.

He's ruined it for the rest of them.

At Collingwood we simply must improve next season in all areas.

bucks#noexcuses2015


Stands, applauds!!!!!

PS: Honestly, even though I've always personally felt Bucks wasn't up to the task, what I'm really sick of is the excuses and Bucks inability to take any direct responsibility.

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MatthewBoydFanClub 



Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood

PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:13 pm
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swoop42 wrote:
If anyone thinks the Port we beat remotely resembles the Port of this week then they're kidding themselves.

Chalk and cheese.

People can take the glass half full approach but the simple reality is that Ken Hinkley showed he was the right man for the job last year in his first season while most of us continue to hope Bucks can prove the same thing next season in his 4th year.

He showed it doesn't take a "5 year plan" to turn a clubs fortunes around, even one considered a basket case when he took over, nor does it take years to implement a new effective game plan without inherent flaws to easily exploited by quality opposition.

At Collingwood we're still waiting for that. Hopefully it finally arrives next year.

Port have also showed an ability to get super fit on the back of a single preseason last year while we in attempting to do the same thing ended up with a long injury list that included a number of soft tissue complaints.

It's fair to say Hinkley has raised the bar that all rookie coaches will now be judged against.

He's ruined it for the rest of them.

At Collingwood we simply must improve next season in all areas.

bucks#noexcuses2015


While Hinkley is good, I don't think he's that good. He replaced a complete idiot in Primus. Also look at their recruiting: Ollie Wines, Harlett, Wingard, Boak - all top end first round draft picks. The last time we had draft picks as high as Port was 2005.
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AN_Inkling 



Joined: 06 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 5:59 pm
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^^Yeah, Hinkley came into a perfect situation. A team that was struggling terribly from mismanagement but which had quality young players at its disposal all ready to improve.

I agree with swoop on us beating Port though. We were terrible by the end of the year and that win tells us nothing other than how bad Port's worse form was.

Our win over Sydney was better, but again they were not the dominant team they are now. We did legitimately beat North Melbourne in one of our better wins and our form for the first half of the year was quite good, it's the second half that is the worry.

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swoop42 Virgo

Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?


Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:44 pm
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While I do agree that the Port list had some quality young players on it, quite a few top 10 draft picks you still need the right coach to get the best out of any list which Hinkley clearly has and Primus couldn't.

What can't be ignored is that Bucks also inherited a list with a bunch of quality players just entering there prime years at the beginning of 2012.

For three years (05,06,0Cool we gained quality players in Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid, Brown, Sidebottom and Beams via the draft.

Four of those were top 10 selections, one a pick 11 while Beams would now be considered a top 5 selection in a retrospective draft analysis from that year.

We also gained Cloke and H.Shaw via father son selections at low cost.

Without even considering others that's 8 players alone who played a role in helping us win a flag in 2010 that in reality occurred sooner than most expected, players you assumed would be driving forces in subsequent finals campaigns to come as they were/are still young men in there prime years.

Fast forward to 2014 and both Shaw and Thomas have departed, Brown, Reid and Beams have all lost a season to injury (not bucks fault though Reid and Beams suffered repeated soft tissue injuries) during this time while Cloke had a season he'd rather forget for the most part this year.

It's fair to say things haven't exactly panned out as expected and hoped for since the beginning of 2012 and while clearly not is all the fault of the coach he still has played a part in the seemingly unraveling of a most dominant football side we witnessed in 2010/11, one that still contained a host of young elite talent when he took over.

For me we have 3 important and pressing issues that need to be addressed urgently this off season if we are to get back on the right track and display improved performances.

1.Coaching strategy.
2.Injury prevention and recovery.
3.Player management and welfare.

Those in the inner sanctum may not see points 1 and 3 as a major concern and be comfortable with our direction for me issues seem to exist.

For me the Hawthorn side of 2008 is how we'll judge the success of this coaching handover.

They like us were seen as having won a flag before there time back in 2008.

They went backwards immediately in 2009 but have been progressing and improving under Clarkson ever since culminating in last years premiership after making the grand final the season previous.

They remain in serious contention for this years flag 6 years later.

This is exactly what was imagined, planned and hoped for by Eddie, Pert and the rest of us at the start of 2012 and not the situation we now find ourselves in.

Don't try and convince yourselves into thinking anything else people.

I no longer will.

Given that we made the GF in 2011 I think we have until 2016, 2017 at the very latest to win a flag and still believe the succession plan has been a relative success.

Whether or not Buckley will be the man to lead us there and still at the helm is very much open to debate right now though.


Over to you bucks.

Make us believers again in 2015.

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AN_Inkling 



Joined: 06 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:25 pm
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^^This post I agree with fully. I wasn't suggesting that Bucks came into a difficult situation list wise. Our list was in a fantastic position when he took over. The difficulty which Bucks had and Hinkley did not was following on from successive Grand Final appearances and molding an already developed culture and playing style into his own. All of this with the previous coach making it clear that he'd still like to be in the job. It's one of the many reasons why the succession plan was a mistake and one we're still feeling the effects of.

I'm also not with those that think our dropoff is largely due to key Premiership players coming to the end of their careers. Most of these were not key players. Valuable yes, but not key; they were eminently replaceable. Every team loses players and being younger we actually lost less than most. To put things into perspective, the Cats lost the best player in the comp and the best fullback ever. If we'd got the transition right we could have stayed up at the top. We didn't and had to make the tough call to take a step back and go into a rebuild stage. The good thing is that we made this call at the earliest possible time and have made a good start to recruiting our way out of it.

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jackcass Cancer



Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:35 am
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swoop42 wrote:
If anyone thinks the Port we beat remotely resembles the Port of this week then they're kidding themselves.

Chalk and cheese.

People can take the glass half full approach but the simple reality is that Ken Hinkley showed he was the right man for the job last year in his first season while most of us continue to hope Bucks can prove the same thing next season in his 4th year.

He showed it doesn't take a "5 year plan" to turn a clubs fortunes around, even one considered a basket case when he took over, nor does it take years to implement a new effective game plan without inherent flaws to easily exploited by quality opposition.

At Collingwood we're still waiting for that. Hopefully it finally arrives next year.

Port have also showed an ability to get super fit on the back of a single preseason last year while we in attempting to do the same thing ended up with a long injury list that included a number of soft tissue complaints.

It's fair to say Hinkley has raised the bar that all rookie coaches will now be judged against.

He's ruined it for the rest of them.

At Collingwood we simply must improve next season in all areas.

bucks#noexcuses2015


Bit like Scott at Geelong. Both had the luck of walking into teams that were primed. Bucks came into his position to a team that had played off in 2 GFs but I'd suggest heading the other direction given the decline of Didak, Jolly etc on top of the premature departures of Brown and Davis.
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The_Staunton Virgo



Joined: 30 Jul 2007
Location: Hobart

PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:09 am
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swoop42 wrote:
While I do agree that the Port list had some quality young players on it, quite a few top 10 draft picks you still need the right coach to get the best out of any list which Hinkley clearly has and Primus couldn't.

What can't be ignored is that Bucks also inherited a list with a bunch of quality players just entering there prime years at the beginning of 2012.

For three years (05,06,0Cool we gained quality players in Thomas, Pendlebury, Reid, Brown, Sidebottom and Beams via the draft.

Four of those were top 10 selections, one a pick 11 while Beams would now be considered a top 5 selection in a retrospective draft analysis from that year.

We also gained Cloke and H.Shaw via father son selections at low cost.

Without even considering others that's 8 players alone who played a role in helping us win a flag in 2010 that in reality occurred sooner than most expected, players you assumed would be driving forces in subsequent finals campaigns to come as they were/are still young men in there prime years.

Fast forward to 2014 and both Shaw and Thomas have departed, Brown, Reid and Beams have all lost a season to injury (not bucks fault though Reid and Beams suffered repeated soft tissue injuries) during this time while Cloke had a season he'd rather forget for the most part this year.

It's fair to say things haven't exactly panned out as expected and hoped for since the beginning of 2012 and while clearly not is all the fault of the coach he still has played a part in the seemingly unraveling of a most dominant football side we witnessed in 2010/11, one that still contained a host of young elite talent when he took over.

For me we have 3 important and pressing issues that need to be addressed urgently this off season if we are to get back on the right track and display improved performances.

1.Coaching strategy.
2.Injury prevention and recovery.
3.Player management and welfare.

Those in the inner sanctum may not see points 1 and 3 as a major concern and be comfortable with our direction for me issues seem to exist.

For me the Hawthorn side of 2008 is how we'll judge the success of this coaching handover.

They like us were seen as having won a flag before there time back in 2008.

They went backwards immediately in 2009 but have been progressing and improving under Clarkson ever since culminating in last years premiership after making the grand final the season previous.

They remain in serious contention for this years flag 6 years later.

This is exactly what was imagined, planned and hoped for by Eddie, Pert and the rest of us at the start of 2012 and not the situation we now find ourselves in.

Don't try and convince yourselves into thinking anything else people.

I no longer will.

Given that we made the GF in 2011 I think we have until 2016, 2017 at the very latest to win a flag and still believe the succession plan has been a relative success.

Whether or not Buckley will be the man to lead us there and still at the helm is very much open to debate right now though.


Over to you bucks.

Make us believers again in 2015.


Just got a feeling Buckley won't be there in 2017 but whoever takes over will have a great young list and we'll begin the ride again.

Just genuinely from what I've seen don't see any coaching ability in Nathan Buckley - the number of times we lose the same way (what are we now, 0-7 to Hawthorn?) without any sign of improvement has been staggering.

However, I also think the players and the club need to take some responsibility - our assistant coaches are rank, where as once we used to be a pathway towards a senior job. And I would say if you go back and watch the B*W show on Youtube from 2010 and 11 you'll see a united bunch of mates. Those mates (starting with Leon Davis) have been continually flicked and replaced by model citizens who simply aren't good enough from other clubs. Can't blame the players for starting to look out for themselves and put the team second to their own well being financially when Leon, Heath and Sharrod were all flicked (the latter with a flea in his ear).

The WHOLE club needs to start uniting, because next season is already shaping up to be ugly...

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 7:52 am
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jackcass wrote:
swoop42 wrote:
If anyone thinks the Port we beat remotely resembles the Port of this week then they're kidding themselves.

Chalk and cheese.

People can take the glass half full approach but the simple reality is that Ken Hinkley showed he was the right man for the job last year in his first season while most of us continue to hope Bucks can prove the same thing next season in his 4th year.

He showed it doesn't take a "5 year plan" to turn a clubs fortunes around, even one considered a basket case when he took over, nor does it take years to implement a new effective game plan without inherent flaws to easily exploited by quality opposition.

At Collingwood we're still waiting for that. Hopefully it finally arrives next year.

Port have also showed an ability to get super fit on the back of a single preseason last year while we in attempting to do the same thing ended up with a long injury list that included a number of soft tissue complaints.

It's fair to say Hinkley has raised the bar that all rookie coaches will now be judged against.

He's ruined it for the rest of them.

At Collingwood we simply must improve next season in all areas.

bucks#noexcuses2015


Bit like Scott at Geelong. Both had the luck of walking into teams that were primed. Bucks came into his position to a team that had played off in 2 GFs but I'd suggest heading the other direction given the decline of Didak, Jolly etc on top of the premature departures of Brown and Davis.


Two top posts. The second especially. I still think a lot of our players seemed happy with the one flag. Too much complacency, for some the realisation they weren't just going to keep coming, seems to have finally hit, and for some, it didn't. And the other thing that Port didn't have to deal with, which I still believe one hundred percent cost us 2011, and that was the changeover that went so badly wrong. MM did not give it his best shot, he spent too much time carrying on like a 2 year old. God knows what that did to the morale of some of the team. Follow that up with the injury list from hell this year, we were top four material at the start of the season, better skills, fitness seemed enough. Unless the fitness department gets overhauled, and we find out what the hell went wrong, it will be same old same old. Some bad injuries there. What for those players now? Can they ever come back enough? Brown and Ried being major concerns. How to get their bodies less fragile?

If you judge bucks on the first few weeks (let's pretend the first week never happened) he looked pretty good. The slide with fitness, the amount of young players on the field through necessity, the skills go to shit.

Swoop I reckon your spot on with those three points. Hopefully they are all being worked on. Eddie has made noise about the injury/rehab problems, so that's one, the moving on of several coaches, that's the first, and number three, well I'm hoping that stays closer to home, the Heri headlines don't do the club any favours, no matter who's problem it turns out to be. Bu t hopefully that's being addressed too.

The signing of Goldy, that's a big one saying that things are not so bad for the players, and being able to sign Broomhead, as I really believe this kid is something special, and he can take us a long way, plus Kennedy and Marsh, etc etc. If Beams stays, surely that will convince a few that things ain't as bad as some think. And, in saying all that, I really hope the Heri situation gets resolved and he stays. When he's on he's incredible, but he needs to get his head straight. I still don't believe for a minute this is all about some poster. He needs to go away and sort his demons, and he needs to get rid of the yes men telling him he can say what he wants when he wants. There's a time and a place for everything. It's a team. And it needs to unite. Everybody needs to sort their shit. 40 young men, your going to get some friction, that's just fact.

It's easy to forget how good we looked at the start of the season. We almost got Geelong, if we had, the whole footy world would be looking at us differently. We had a lot of kids in that game too, they were fresh, and next year, they will be even better. Elliot for one, witts for another, another season done, another preseason.

I agree

"We have a good list."

Some good recruiting, maybe pick up some experience with a good head.

But get healthy. Looks like they are working to that.

Can we really judge Bucks on the last few weeks of the season? It was a $£$%^%%$ nightmare. But let's not forget the kids who did stand up tall in those games, who had some of us at least, staying to the end, willing them on.

Swan has copped it over the years for his attitude, and PENDLES copped a bit for a while there. Both these champs now having operations to get their bodies fixed. Just what the Hell were they playing through those weeks? That's pure leadership right there. The team was gone, everyone knew that, even if we made finals, we were toast.

On saying that, I expect to see the future looking bright next year, big changes, on and off the field. I still believe in the vision of Eddie and Bucks. But they need to get it on the park next year.

Go Pies.

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The Boy Who Cried Wolf 



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 8:18 am
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Some good posts, glad some of the 'Nicks list' appear to be more accepting of the facts. Go Pies!!
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AN_Inkling 



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:06 am
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jackcass wrote:
swoop42 wrote:
If anyone thinks the Port we beat remotely resembles the Port of this week then they're kidding themselves.

Chalk and cheese.

People can take the glass half full approach but the simple reality is that Ken Hinkley showed he was the right man for the job last year in his first season while most of us continue to hope Bucks can prove the same thing next season in his 4th year.

He showed it doesn't take a "5 year plan" to turn a clubs fortunes around, even one considered a basket case when he took over, nor does it take years to implement a new effective game plan without inherent flaws to easily exploited by quality opposition.

At Collingwood we're still waiting for that. Hopefully it finally arrives next year.

Port have also showed an ability to get super fit on the back of a single preseason last year while we in attempting to do the same thing ended up with a long injury list that included a number of soft tissue complaints.

It's fair to say Hinkley has raised the bar that all rookie coaches will now be judged against.

He's ruined it for the rest of them.

At Collingwood we simply must improve next season in all areas.

bucks#noexcuses2015


Bit like Scott at Geelong. Both had the luck of walking into teams that were primed. Bucks came into his position to a team that had played off in 2 GFs but I'd suggest heading the other direction given the decline of Didak, Jolly etc on top of the premature departures of Brown and Davis.


Ablett, Scarlett, Ottens, Rooke, Harley, Mooney, Milburn ...

Also you can't look at the outs and say we were helpless to do anything about them. Leon wanted to play another year, and after a career best season, should have. Jolly was starting to struggle with injury in 2011, where was our succession plan? Maxwell playing ruck late in 2012 was not it. Should have we realised that Wood was not up to it earlier?

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MJ23 



Joined: 28 Feb 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:30 am
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AN_Inkling wrote:
jackcass wrote:
swoop42 wrote:
If anyone thinks the Port we beat remotely resembles the Port of this week then they're kidding themselves.

Chalk and cheese.

People can take the glass half full approach but the simple reality is that Ken Hinkley showed he was the right man for the job last year in his first season while most of us continue to hope Bucks can prove the same thing next season in his 4th year.

He showed it doesn't take a "5 year plan" to turn a clubs fortunes around, even one considered a basket case when he took over, nor does it take years to implement a new effective game plan without inherent flaws to easily exploited by quality opposition.

At Collingwood we're still waiting for that. Hopefully it finally arrives next year.

Port have also showed an ability to get super fit on the back of a single preseason last year while we in attempting to do the same thing ended up with a long injury list that included a number of soft tissue complaints.

It's fair to say Hinkley has raised the bar that all rookie coaches will now be judged against.

He's ruined it for the rest of them.

At Collingwood we simply must improve next season in all areas.

bucks#noexcuses2015


Bit like Scott at Geelong. Both had the luck of walking into teams that were primed. Bucks came into his position to a team that had played off in 2 GFs but I'd suggest heading the other direction given the decline of Didak, Jolly etc on top of the premature departures of Brown and Davis.


Ablett, Scarlett, Ottens, Rooke, Harley, Mooney, Milburn ...

Also you can't look at the outs and say we were helpless to do anything about them. Leon wanted to play another year, and after a career best season, should have. Jolly was starting to struggle with injury in 2011, where was our succession plan? Maxwell playing ruck late in 2012 was not it. Should have we realised that Wood was not up to it earlier?



And yet since 2011 GF both the Cats and the Pies have each only won one final.
We though have a much younger list of players coming through and have only Swan over 30 years old.
I think the Cats have a remarkable record of picking up recycled players to fill a role - Frawley will be another.
They're best recruit though I think lately is Caddy and is age an formline is a great example for our Adams who is coming through at the same rate.

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:12 pm
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steve Johnson, bartel, they must be nearly gone, they are both resorting to hissy fits now that they are off the pace. johnson in particular, just doesn't have the magic now. hopefully gone sooner rather than later, and its a big hole to fill. they don't have anything close coming on to fill those two gaps that I can see.
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf 



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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 12:25 pm
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think positive wrote:
steve Johnson, bartel, they must be nearly gone, they are both resorting to hissy fits now that they are off the pace. johnson in particular, just doesn't have the magic now. hopefully gone sooner rather than later, and its a big hole to fill. they don't have anything close coming on to fill those two gaps that I can see.


Maybe, more on Johnson I suspect as Bartel will still be useful even if he's lost some pace - still I don't see them missing the 8 next year unless they have some injuries, just maybe not top 4 anymore.

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GoWoodsmen 



Joined: 18 Apr 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:04 pm
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pablo wrote:
So.... we play once:
Sydney
Hawthorn
Geelong
Fremantle
Port
North
Essendon
Richmond

??

i bet we don't get the draw we deserve.....


For anyone seeking clarification on the fixturing I found an old article on The Age that gave the rundown very simply:

Quote:
teams are grouped simply 1-6, 7-12 and 13-18. To determine the five return or "double-up" fixtures for each club, a few straightforward restrictions are in place. Teams will be limited to a minimum of two and a maximum of three "double up" games against clubs in the same third of the ladder.

Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/afl-fixture-model-set-to-challenge-big-victorian-clubs-20130903-2t2c9.html#ixzz3DLTHMGVz


It goes on to explain that the top 6 and bottom 6 can only have a maximum of 1 return match against a team in that "opposite" group.

For us we're basically guaranteed a minimum 1 and max 2 return fixtures against 1-6 and 13-18. Given that Carlton is in the bottom 6 there has to be some hope we'll actually get 2 return fixtures from that bottom 6... although it is us so more likely they'll put us against the Hawks and Geelong twice or something stupid like that.

So... for 2015, we're grouped with Essendon, Richmond, West Coast, Adelaide and Gold Coast.

So our guaranteed 2 return matches would be Essendon (a monty) and I'm sure Richmond will be pushing like hell to ensure they get to play us twice for the first time in a century (kidding but it has been a while).

Going to be interesting....

Oh... and just on the comparison with Port Adelaide... my brother was telling me on the weekend when Hinkley arrived at Port they had 13 - yes 13 - first round picks on their list. So while they were a basket case it was clear they just needed the right person in charge.

I think there's massive upside for us next year, even if we are cursed with injuries again. We've got so many players with senior experience now. With a bit of luck the few senior players we've got left can lift 10% rather than treading water like they did for much of this year.

Damn... it's not even Grand Final day and I'm itching for next season!

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