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Scottish independence referendum

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:11 pm
Post subject: Scottish independence referendumReply with quote

Surprised there isn't already a thread on this.

Just over a week until the people of Scotland vote on whether they want to become an independent country, which would essentially end the United Kingdom as we know it.

Polls over the last 18 months or so have consistently shown only minority support, but there's been a surge of support in the last weeks, and a poll has finally achieved a majority 'yes' vote for the first time.

So, what do you think? Do you want Scotland to become independent? Do you care? And what implications will there be for the UK and the Commonwealth?

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partypie 



Joined: 01 Oct 2010


PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:33 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Royal baby announcement timely ?
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swoop42 Virgo

Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?


Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 2:35 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

To me I'm surprised there isn't overwhelming majority support for it.

Did Mel Gibson lie to us all?

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5150 Sagittarius



Joined: 31 Aug 2005


PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:25 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Similar to Australia becoming a republic, looks and sounds good but when push comes to shove we fold like a 10 pound bill.
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Tannin Capricorn

Can't remember


Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:30 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Not much interest, I'm afraid.
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ronrat 



Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:42 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

It is for the Scots to decide. The likes of Tony Abbott and Hilary Clinton can eff off.
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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 3:45 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you sure for the Scots to decide is?
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3.14159 Taurus



Joined: 12 Sep 2009


PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:04 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Billy Bragg: Take down the Union Jack

Take down the Union Jack, it clashes with the sunset
And ask our Scottish neighbours if independence looks any good
Cos they just might understand how to take an abstract notion
Of personal identity and turn it into nationhood.
And pile all those history books, but dont throw them away
They just might have some clues about what it really means
To be an Anglo hyphen Saxon in England.co.uk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AoXLUXIeVhU
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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 7:57 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Im a dual national of Aust and UK and a long-term resident of the latter. I hope the Scots dont go, but if they do, then Ill be proud that my country does things the right way by giving a separatist people the vote, and respecting their decision. Not too many countries show that level of political civility, and its part of the greatness of our democratic tradition that we can do it this way.

The Scottish economy is based on North Sea oil, and oil services, banking, whisky (no joke its a large industry) and tourism. Of those, the oil is a depleting and high-cost resource. Weve just seen various lessons in large banks being hosted by small countries. The other two industries cannot fund the deeply socialist Scotland that the SNP promises. Scotlands currency will be an attractive short on the markets, and if it joins the Euro, as the SNP seems to intend, it will have to compete economically with Germany and France and the Netherlands. I cannot see that happening. That will bring, over time, the kind of austerity that makes the recent British recession look like a ceilidh. Age pensions and the NHS will probably prove unaffordable at their current levels, and Scotlands ability to finance itself at UK AA1 rates via international bond markets will be severely impaired. In short, I think it is an act of economic irrationalism. Romance often is, though - that doesn't necessarily make it wrong.

And life is not all about economics. The Scots are a proud and distinct people and they deserve their own country if they want it. Politically, it may be a good thing. Today, Scotland blames most of its post-industrial problems on England it was all Thatchers fault, rather than a competitiveness problem. Independence may help Scotland to face this more squarely if its politicians no longer have the southern scapegoat. Moreover, the attitude of too many Scots toward the English (rarely the reverse) is poisonous. It will probably foster better relations, over time. Perhaps, who knows, an even stronger emotional union based on ties of history and sacrifice.

Internationally, the UK will be slightly weakened by the secession. To use a narrow example, the next time an Argentine dictatorship or demagogue invades and annexes British citizens in the Falklands the Royal Navy will be that bit weaker. This is not in Britains interests, or those of the democratic world.

Good luck to them. I think either outcome will have pluses and minuses given the democratic way it is being done.

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Last edited by Mugwump on Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:15 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

^

Good stuff, from my perspective basically DILLIGAF. They'll do what they do.

Personally why anyone would want to stay linked to the Poms has got me buggered, but hey each to their own, Wink Razz

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Morrigu Capricorn



Joined: 11 Aug 2001


PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:27 pm
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As you say mugwump there are pros and cons but don't try telling my hubby's family that - them that are still there and them that are here are dead set 100% for independence!

Mind you this is not surprising - the Scots hold a grudge as well as us Irish Razz

By way of example anything with the Campbell name including the soup is banned from our house!

"Despite them"

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sixpoints 



Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Location: Lulie Street

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:50 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a referendum for democracy.
Scotland has suffered from a deficit of democracy for decades. The present situation exemplifies it as good as any.
Present Westminster Government = Conservative.
Scottish seats held by Conservatives 1 out of 59!
It was even worse in the 1980-90's. Then in a Tory Westminster government, Scotland elected ZERO Conservatives. Scotland is not fairly represented in Westminster. It is tied to an electoral system that ignores its wishes.
The democratic response to the non represenation in Westminster is to hold the most democratic of all referendums. All Scots, Brits, Commonwealth & E.U residents of Scotland over the age if 16 can vote. This is broad based inclusive democracy in action.
This swell of democracy has completely outflanked the political class of the establishment centred on SE England.
The main British media (from London) ignored the referendum as an
inconsequential side show. The Westminster power brokers did the same. So smug were they in the belief in the NO vote.
The NO vote marshalled its forces into the 'Better Together' campaign. Ex-
politicians, captains of industry, celebrities, sport stars all ran the race. The main focus was a fear campaign - economic oblivion, stock market crash,
Scotland will not be linked to the pound, the E.U won't let Scotland in, border
crossings will be set up, Scotland will be flooded with E.U immigrants.....
But the longer the campaign went, the more the YES vote grew. The NO vote propaganda was increasingly seen as patronizing and negative - "trust us down here..we know what's best for you"
But the YES vote kept growing.
The YES focus was upon true democratic representation, the ending of ties with the ludicrously undemocratic House of Lords, an end to deployment of nuclear weapons on Scottish land/seas, full control of taxation.
The British PM David Cameron engaged in the debate, but his Tory
government only has 1 seat in Scotland. His intervention is rightfully
dismissed - his party represents no one in Scotland. Labour leader Ed Milliband joins in - he needs all those Scottish seats in Westminster, but he too is seen as a moribund political manouverer whose real interest is in England. So no one's listening. So now it's panic.
Now it's news item number one across Britain.
Now the national (London based) media that ignored the situation is screaming "10 days left to save the country".
But now it's too late for the politicians due to purdah. Purdah is the 28 day black out of new policies & programs leading up to any vote. So as Scotland
turns, the Westminster boys who had years to mount their case are now silenced. So they bring in a proxy - ex PM & retired politician Gordon Brown.
Brown proclaims if the Scots vote NO, then Westminster will approve further devolution of powers as a measure of consolation. This has gone down like a ton of bricks. It is seen as a cynically late and desperate act. An act so late
that no one actually in power can make it. It is a late bribe by proxy.
It appears that vote will be close, but that it will be YES.
The ham fisted NO campaign is increasingly convincing Scots of the distain and reactionary ignorance that Scotland evokes from Westminster.
What all this means for the rest of the UK, will be their decision. It will
certainly pose issues particularly for Northern Ireland.
But if the Union is no longer relevant and not providing for its constituent
parts, then it's up to each member to determine its own future.
The U.K. itself is due for a national election next year. If Scotland leaves,
then Cameron will be gone, blamed as the Tory PM who could not maintain the 300 year old Union. Labour will be minus its 50 Scottish seats and Milliband has strongly come out as a Unionist. He too looks lost.
The concern would be an English nationalist backlash, the UKIP polled well in the last Euro elections and if they rally support from nationlists, National
Front and other assorted loonies they may grab seats. So a backlash swing to the right in England would be no surprise.
But that's a matter for the English....
For Australia, it may focus again the conversation on an Australian Head of State.
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think positive Libra

Side By Side


Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:39 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

****, who's gunna win Wimbledon for us now
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:44 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

think positive wrote:
****, who's gunna win Wimbledon for us now


Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

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sixpoints 



Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Location: Lulie Street

PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2014 9:53 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

think positive wrote:
****, who's gunna win Wimbledon for us now


Tim Henman?
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