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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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Jury isn't out, Big T. White's a dud.
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Breadcrawl
Joined: 14 Oct 2007
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I'd like a justification of our list rating of 12th.
Produce a complete ranking of all lists from 1st to 18th please.
It should include detailed analysis of each list's experience levels, projected upside, depth and positional balance.
You have 24 hours
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they can smell what we're cookin' |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| Big T wrote: |
Hawks have done amazingly well with their mature aged recruits, Lake, Hale, Ceglar, Burgoyne etc last night all playing vital roles.
But we must now have faith that Hine can rediscover his mojo with the older guys, and I believe he will be proven correct with the youngens. If Freeman, Scharenberg, Kennedy and Grundy come on, Broomhead already has, that is bloody exciting.
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It's not a fair comparison.
You can really only compare Ball and Jolly to the Hawks types you mentioned (other than Ceglar who is still only a marginal player and will have little impact on their Premiership tilt), as those are the players we drafted to take us to a flag. Our mature aged recruits of late have been stopgaps (Lynch, Hudson) or cheap depth players (Russell, Armstrong). White and Young were recruited with a more important role in mind, and maybe Young could be considered a partial failure. But again, these are both players we did not have to give up anything much for, they were recruited to replace guys we'd given up, not to be the last piece in completing our team.
We're not yet at a point where we should be looking for top up players like those the Hawks recruited and we did in 2009. That may come in a year or so if we have specific needs. The older players we've picked up have been a minor part of our recruiting. They were more to keep us from falling away completely. The more important recruiting is our draft picks and players like Adams and Elliott. So far, injuries aside, we look to have done well.
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | | Big T wrote: |
Hawks have done amazingly well with their mature aged recruits, Lake, Hale, Ceglar, Burgoyne etc last night all playing vital roles.
But we must now have faith that Hine can rediscover his mojo with the older guys, and I believe he will be proven correct with the youngens. If Freeman, Scharenberg, Kennedy and Grundy come on, Broomhead already has, that is bloody exciting.
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It's not a fair comparison.
You can really only compare Ball and Jolly to the Hawks types you mentioned (other than Ceglar who is still only a marginal player and will have little impact on their Premiership tilt), as those are the players we drafted to take us to a flag. Our mature aged recruits of late have been stopgaps (Lynch, Hudson) or cheap depth players (Russell, Armstrong). White and Young were recruited with a more important role in mind, and maybe Young could be considered a partial failure. But again, these are both players we did not have to give up anything much for, they were recruited to replace guys we'd given up, not to be the last piece in completing our team.
We're not yet at a point where we should be looking for top up players like those the Hawks recruited and we did in 2009. That may come in a year or so if we have specific needs. The older players we've picked up have been a minor part of our recruiting. They were more to keep us from falling away completely. The more important recruiting is our draft picks and players like Adams and Elliott. So far, injuries aside, we look to have done well. |
Yep, well said Inky. |
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collie dog
RIP Shelby 11-10-13
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Location: Shelby Christmas dog
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| Breadcrawl wrote: | I'd like a justification of our list rating of 12th.
Produce a complete ranking of all lists from 1st to 18th please.
It should include detailed analysis of each list's experience levels, projected upside, depth and positional balance.
You have 24 hours |
I have a life. I couldn't give a stuff. You do it!
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Rain or hail, I wag my tail |
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Big T
Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Location: Torino, Italy
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | | Big T wrote: |
Hawks have done amazingly well with their mature aged recruits, Lake, Hale, Ceglar, Burgoyne etc last night all playing vital roles.
But we must now have faith that Hine can rediscover his mojo with the older guys, and I believe he will be proven correct with the youngens. If Freeman, Scharenberg, Kennedy and Grundy come on, Broomhead already has, that is bloody exciting.
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It's not a fair comparison.
You can really only compare Ball and Jolly to the Hawks types you mentioned (other than Ceglar who is still only a marginal player and will have little impact on their Premiership tilt), as those are the players we drafted to take us to a flag. Our mature aged recruits of late have been stopgaps (Lynch, Hudson) or cheap depth players (Russell, Armstrong). White and Young were recruited with a more important role in mind, and maybe Young could be considered a partial failure. But again, these are both players we did not have to give up anything much for, they were recruited to replace guys we'd given up, not to be the last piece in completing our team.
We're not yet at a point where we should be looking for top up players like those the Hawks recruited and we did in 2009. That may come in a year or so if we have specific needs. The older players we've picked up have been a minor part of our recruiting. They were more to keep us from falling away completely. The more important recruiting is our draft picks and players like Adams and Elliott. So far, injuries aside, we look to have done well. |
Ok, that may sound all fine and well, but the hawks will likely win their third flag in the past seven years in a few weeks time. I don't need any other analysis to know that what they have done is clearly better than what we have done and we need to learn from it.
And poach graham wright.
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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I don't think it's about learning from them. We decided that our squad was at a different stage of development and needed to build up its stock of young players for the future, not bring in quality mature players for the now.
If you want to compare us to Hawthorn, you might need to look at what they did earlier in their build. They traded out older players, fell down the ladder and drafted in as many young players as possible. After their first flag they again fell down the ladder, drafted more young players and topped up with key experienced ones.
I guess my point is that we've made the decision that topping up was not going to be enough. We've been up near the top a long time (longer than Hawthorn) and we are now going through a moderate rebuilding stage. So in moving on Wellingham, Dawes, Thomas, Shaw, even Jolly and Didak maybe we have learned from Hawthorn, just from a different stage of their development than you're looking at.
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Well done boys! |
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| collie dog wrote: | | Breadcrawl wrote: | I'd like a justification of our list rating of 12th.
Produce a complete ranking of all lists from 1st to 18th please.
It should include detailed analysis of each list's experience levels, projected upside, depth and positional balance.
You have 24 hours |
I have a life. I couldn't give a stuff. You do it! |
coming on here belittling and bemoaning everything the club does. what a miserable life it must be. i almost feel sorry for you.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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John Wren
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | I don't think it's about learning from them. We decided that our squad was at a different stage of development and needed to build up its stock of young players for the future, not bring in quality mature players for the now.
If you want to compare us to Hawthorn, you might need to look at what they did earlier in their build. They traded out older players, fell down the ladder and drafted in as many young players as possible. After their first flag they again fell down the ladder, drafted more young players and topped up with key experienced ones.
I guess my point is that we've made the decision that topping up was not going to be enough. We've been up near the top a long time (longer than Hawthorn) and we are now going through a moderate rebuilding stage. So in moving on Wellingham, Dawes, Thomas, Shaw, even Jolly and Didak maybe we have learned from Hawthorn, just from a different stage of their development than you're looking at. |
very few clubs get to stay up for any prolonged period of time. when at the top of their game a club may get two or three years where they can really strike for a premiership across a four to five year window.
hawthorn may be pacesetters but we should not be following them. we should be looking at how we overtake them. our next ascension is likely to coincide with their next downward spiral. i expect us to be competing with the two expansion clubs and port adelaide when we are ready again.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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mackasmatt
Joined: 19 Dec 2007
Location: Perth, WA
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I think it was a terrible year to lose Buttifant to Carlton. I am not surprised we had so many injuries in Davoren's first year, he simply has no idea what the limitations are of his training expectations.
- Our skills were terrible. Which I believe comes from not having generally the same team on the park every week.
- Our key defensive posts didn't play (Reid 4 games, Brown 3 games)
- Our top 2 draft picks didn't play at all (Scharenberg and Freeman)
- Cloke kicked 39 in 20 games, currently 16th in goals and 12th in marks (which is not enough for $800k/yr)
- We can't find a reliable 2nd key forward (White, 18 games, 20 goals)
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mel_kay39
PIES PREMIERS 2010
Joined: 28 Aug 2007
Location: www.webs.com/mel_y_kay
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| Big T wrote: | Look, we did well with Jolly and Ball and won a flag with those moves. Lynch in hindsight (I thought at the time it was an excellent decision), Russell (never gunna work), cutting Ceglar (bloody ridiculous), in my opinion Armstrong, have been bad decisions. Young is looking to be another bad decision. White, jury is out.
Hawks have done amazingly well with their mature aged recruits, Lake, Hale, Ceglar, Burgoyne etc last night all playing vital roles.
But we must now have faith that Hine can rediscover his mojo with the older guys, and I believe he will be proven correct with the youngens. If Freeman, Scharenberg, Kennedy and Grundy come on, Broomhead already has, that is bloody exciting.
And there is a good chance they all will.
And after two years of questioning the lad, I think Witts is starting to look like a footballer. Again, very exciting. |
I never got why we dumped Ceglar.
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A Pie for Life. |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| mel_kay39 wrote: |
Snip:
I never got why we dumped Ceglar. |
I'll enlighten you, it's because the coaching panel only ever intended for us to play with one true ruckman in the team at any one time (and one back up competing for said spot - Witts or Grundy), they are fixated (or were) with the 'Brown' solution (Dawes, White, etc), which we haven't so far been able to replicate.
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All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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Piesnchess
piesnchess
Joined: 09 Jun 2008
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Gwad I despise the Dawks, I mean, not just cos they smashed us the other night, I just really, really loathe their club, their poos and piss colours, their dumbarse snot nosed fans, and old Kennett too. !
ANYONE but the Dawks for the flag, anyone please. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (tiges, dons, norf, port, cats wont make GF )
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Poverty exists not because we cannot feed the poor, but because we cannot satisfy the rich.
Chess and Vodka are born brothers. - Russian proverb. |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| Piesnchess wrote: | Gwad I despise the Dawks, I mean, not just cos they smashed us the other night, I just really, really loathe their club, their poos and piss colours, their dumbarse snot nosed fans, and old Kennett too. !
ANYONE but the Dawks for the flag, anyone please. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (tiges, dons, norf, port, cats wont make GF ) |
I'm going for North (not that I give them much hope), got sick of the dawks in the 80's...
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All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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collie dog
RIP Shelby 11-10-13
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Location: Shelby Christmas dog
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| Piesnchess wrote: | Gwad I despise the Dawks, I mean, not just cos they smashed us the other night, I just really, really loathe their club, their poos and piss colours, their dumbarse snot nosed fans, and old Kennett too. !
ANYONE but the Dawks for the flag, anyone please. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (tiges, dons, norf, port, cats wont make GF ) |
So you don't acknowledge professionalism and sustained success over the past 50 years? Financially they are as strong as us. Have a superb HQ at Waverley (thereby cornering the Eastern suburbs supporter base), earn $5 million a year playing 4 games in Tassie (talk about laughing all the way to the bank), and on Friday's night's showing they draw more supporters to games than us. Expect them to pass us in members next year. And don't get me started on their cheer squad next to ours.
And don't forget. 1961 to 2014:
Collingwood 2 flags, Hawthorn 11 and counting.
And no I don't support the Hawks (Jack Spain might but stuff him), I'm on Richmond now as you know.   
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Rain or hail, I wag my tail |
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