Gender question
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| Should this player have been allowed on the court? |
| Yes |
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68% |
[ 11 ] |
| No, the physicality is an unfair advantage |
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31% |
[ 5 ] |
| Any ideas for a third option welcome! |
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| Total Votes : 16 |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Wokko wrote: |
No she shouldn't be able to play women's sports. If we are going to segregate women and mens sports then transgender people should have their own division. There should be no discrimination in general society, we can treat them as women but sports should be another matter.
But there is an undeniable advantage in physical sports in being born male, no matter what hormones or operations you have later. Do you think it's fair for Fallon Fox to be beating up Cisgendered women when she was born a man with the associated development, bone density, joint structure etc?
We shouldn't have to bend over backwards to accommodate someone if that accommodation negatively impacts even more people. People crying 'Bigot' at anyone with an opposing viewpoint doesn't help either. If there's one constant in this it's the intolerance of the 'tolerant'. |
wokko says it far better than me, this is what I mean, with out my female emotional factor getting in the way!
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mandy 
Joined: 03 Jun 2001
Location: Glen Iris
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| think positive wrote: | quite frankly, why not let any male play then?
and YES I recognize that she thinks like a female, wants to be able to live like a female, but her body chemistry is still a male body. chess would be a different matter all together.
those saying, oh no that's just fine; wait til its your kid out there. |
First bold bit - Because she's not a male.
Second bold bit - see above.
Third bold bit - I highly doubt this is anything she (or anyone else) ever wanted.
The last bit I want to say is that I've seen pics of your daughter. She's gorgeous, and sporty and athletic looking. Mine however, (is gorgeous) but is short and kinda weedy looking. The comparison wouldn't be much different between the girl this thread is about and your daughter, and your daughter and mine.
Should my kid not play sport in a league where she might come up across a fit looking kid like yours? That could clearly beat her physically?
Look, I don't know. It just doesn't sit well with me that we should draw lines in these cases. Because if we do, who does it? And where does it start and end if we do?
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#TEAMEDDIE
#TEAMCOLLINGWOOD
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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True Mandy, (and thanksand ditto your gorgeous daughter!) and I get that. There is no easy answer. But I just wanted to point out the other side of the situation.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | AN_Inkling wrote: | I'm sure that we all accept that a transgender person should be allowed to play team sports. If only male or female teams are available, then the female team is clearly where they should be. Mixed teams are also a possibility, but I imagine they'd be fewer in number.
It's possible that they will have a physical advantage, but we don't segregate sports based on race even though it's clear that white men have no vertical leap and can not compete with their black counterparts. I'd like to think that, especially at an amateur level, understanding and inclusiveness would be more important than all players being matched for physical capability. |
why clearly? would they be allowed at Olympic level? cos they damn well shouldn't be.
no, "we" don't segregate sports based on race, but "we" do segregate sports based on sex. and its not because one side is thinking about lipstick and heels, and the other beer and hunting. its because the physicality of male and female bodies is very different.im not talking about the dangly bits. im talking about muscle development and strength, etc etc.
by the way, the stadium has a full quota of mixed teams that play the same night.
understanding and inclusion is fine if it works both ways. charging players like a malee bull, and yelling like Ali is not trying to fit in! we are not talking a kid, or a 120 lb weakling, this transgender was at least 25, and built like a man in their prime. this was physical power that your average Mary doesn't, cant have. its not a matter of matching physical capability, there is plenty of differential there within those born female. just like comparing buddy franklin to the bulldogs murphy. it must be terrible to have that going on in your head. but it was still a male body playing a female game, against other females, who have no choice in the matter. or do their rights not count?
I used to play mixed, A grade. its a whle different ball game to standard netball. basically you duck for cover every time the guys come near you, they play like its footy. its very funny to watch, but players get hurt. and its way more physical now than when I played it 25 years ago. those players choose to take that risk.
as for amateur comp not apparently mattering, that's bull shit. it matters more. just like junior footy, its important to protect the players. at amateur level, the bloody umps are amateur too! and because its mixed A B, the B teams are allowed to get away with heaps, stepping, played ball, and yes, contact, big time!
go down your local stadium and watch the 2 top A grade teams go at it. all this "footy is becoming netball" shit will fly right out the window!
there is a reason boys are stopped from playing in the girls netball teams at 13. its a valid reason. there is a reason that men and woman do not compete against each other, in sprinting, running, track and field. and its not about brain chemistry. its about body physicality, and no amount of hormone treatment will change that.
quite frankly, why not let any male play then?
and YES I recognize that she thinks like a female, wants to be able to live like a female, but her body chemistry is still a male body. chess would be a different matter all together.
those saying, oh no that's just fine; wait til its your kid out there. ive coached these kids since they were tots, they may be 17-20 now, but they are still MY kids. |
I think the problem is that you have a lot more empathy for regular girls on a netball team who possibly have to endure potential disadvantage for one game than a woman who has to endure disadvantage for her entire life. Try to imagine what it's like to feel that you don't belong anywhere; to see people looking at you and knowing that they're thinking "what's that man doing here?". To fear being beaten up in the street (it still happens, way too often).
Whatever they've suffered in life, the girls in your team have no idea what it's like to experience that kind of disadvantage. If they play against this team again and they're expressing frustration over what happens on the court, I think it's your duty as an adult to explain to them why it's important that this woman is allowed to play. It could be a great lesson in empathy and acceptance.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | AN_Inkling wrote: | I'm sure that we all accept that a transgender person should be allowed to play team sports. If only male or female teams are available, then the female team is clearly where they should be. Mixed teams are also a possibility, but I imagine they'd be fewer in number.
It's possible that they will have a physical advantage, but we don't segregate sports based on race even though it's clear that white men have no vertical leap and can not compete with their black counterparts. I'd like to think that, especially at an amateur level, understanding and inclusiveness would be more important than all players being matched for physical capability. |
why clearly? would they be allowed at Olympic level? cos they damn well shouldn't be.
no, "we" don't segregate sports based on race, but "we" do segregate sports based on sex. and its not because one side is thinking about lipstick and heels, and the other beer and hunting. its because the physicality of male and female bodies is very different.im not talking about the dangly bits. im talking about muscle development and strength, etc etc.
by the way, the stadium has a full quota of mixed teams that play the same night.
understanding and inclusion is fine if it works both ways. charging players like a malee bull, and yelling like Ali is not trying to fit in! we are not talking a kid, or a 120 lb weakling, this transgender was at least 25, and built like a man in their prime. this was physical power that your average Mary doesn't, cant have. its not a matter of matching physical capability, there is plenty of differential there within those born female. just like comparing buddy franklin to the bulldogs murphy. it must be terrible to have that going on in your head. but it was still a male body playing a female game, against other females, who have no choice in the matter. or do their rights not count?
I used to play mixed, A grade. its a whle different ball game to standard netball. basically you duck for cover every time the guys come near you, they play like its footy. its very funny to watch, but players get hurt. and its way more physical now than when I played it 25 years ago. those players choose to take that risk.
as for amateur comp not apparently mattering, that's bull shit. it matters more. just like junior footy, its important to protect the players. at amateur level, the bloody umps are amateur too! and because its mixed A B, the B teams are allowed to get away with heaps, stepping, played ball, and yes, contact, big time!
go down your local stadium and watch the 2 top A grade teams go at it. all this "footy is becoming netball" shit will fly right out the window!
there is a reason boys are stopped from playing in the girls netball teams at 13. its a valid reason. there is a reason that men and woman do not compete against each other, in sprinting, running, track and field. and its not about brain chemistry. its about body physicality, and no amount of hormone treatment will change that.
quite frankly, why not let any male play then?
and YES I recognize that she thinks like a female, wants to be able to live like a female, but her body chemistry is still a male body. chess would be a different matter all together.
those saying, oh no that's just fine; wait til its your kid out there. ive coached these kids since they were tots, they may be 17-20 now, but they are still MY kids. |
I think the problem is that you have a lot more empathy for regular girls on a netball team who possibly have to endure potential disadvantage for one game than a woman who has to endure disadvantage for her entire life. Try to imagine what it's like to feel that you don't belong anywhere; to see people looking at you and knowing that they're thinking "what's that man doing here?". To fear being beaten up in the street (it still happens, way too often).
Whatever they've suffered in life, the girls in your team have no idea what it's like to experience that kind of disadvantage. If they play against this team again and they're expressing frustration over what happens on the court, I think it's your duty as an adult to explain to them why it's important that this woman is allowed to play. It could be a great lesson in empathy and acceptance. |
yeah sure, ill explain that to the parents when their kid is getting their broken bones bandaged up!!
its not about winning the game, its about being hurt.
I don't think having too much empathy for the welfare of the kids on the court, who as their coach, are my responsibility, is possible!
(edit ACTUALLY that's my first concern, but im sure the players playing this team in the finals (it will be a different grade finals to us) may see it differently. actually I know they so, because a team was talking about it after the game, before they went on to play, woman gossip you know!! performance matters too. )
I have empathy for anyone struggling for whatever their challenge may be. but also for those effected by the concequences of the result of maybe going too far, or the wrong way, in whatever it is, since rights is apparently not the right word. I don't think there is an easy solution. but its food for thought.
anyhow, ive said my piece, and I appreciate your views. thanks to those who were able to put their cases in a reasonable normal discussion sense!
I will certainly take it on board.
cheers guys
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either!
Last edited by think positive on Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:29 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | AN_Inkling wrote: | I'm sure that we all accept that a transgender person should be allowed to play team sports. If only male or female teams are available, then the female team is clearly where they should be. Mixed teams are also a possibility, but I imagine they'd be fewer in number.
It's possible that they will have a physical advantage, but we don't segregate sports based on race even though it's clear that white men have no vertical leap and can not compete with their black counterparts. I'd like to think that, especially at an amateur level, understanding and inclusiveness would be more important than all players being matched for physical capability. |
why clearly? would they be allowed at Olympic level? cos they damn well shouldn't be.
no, "we" don't segregate sports based on race, but "we" do segregate sports based on sex. and its not because one side is thinking about lipstick and heels, and the other beer and hunting. its because the physicality of male and female bodies is very different.im not talking about the dangly bits. im talking about muscle development and strength, etc etc.
by the way, the stadium has a full quota of mixed teams that play the same night.
understanding and inclusion is fine if it works both ways. charging players like a malee bull, and yelling like Ali is not trying to fit in! we are not talking a kid, or a 120 lb weakling, this transgender was at least 25, and built like a man in their prime. this was physical power that your average Mary doesn't, cant have. its not a matter of matching physical capability, there is plenty of differential there within those born female. just like comparing buddy franklin to the bulldogs murphy. it must be terrible to have that going on in your head. but it was still a male body playing a female game, against other females, who have no choice in the matter. or do their rights not count?
I used to play mixed, A grade. its a whle different ball game to standard netball. basically you duck for cover every time the guys come near you, they play like its footy. its very funny to watch, but players get hurt. and its way more physical now than when I played it 25 years ago. those players choose to take that risk.
as for amateur comp not apparently mattering, that's bull shit. it matters more. just like junior footy, its important to protect the players. at amateur level, the bloody umps are amateur too! and because its mixed A B, the B teams are allowed to get away with heaps, stepping, played ball, and yes, contact, big time!
go down your local stadium and watch the 2 top A grade teams go at it. all this "footy is becoming netball" shit will fly right out the window!
there is a reason boys are stopped from playing in the girls netball teams at 13. its a valid reason. there is a reason that men and woman do not compete against each other, in sprinting, running, track and field. and its not about brain chemistry. its about body physicality, and no amount of hormone treatment will change that.
quite frankly, why not let any male play then?
and YES I recognize that she thinks like a female, wants to be able to live like a female, but her body chemistry is still a male body. chess would be a different matter all together.
those saying, oh no that's just fine; wait til its your kid out there. ive coached these kids since they were tots, they may be 17-20 now, but they are still MY kids. |
I think the problem is that you have a lot more empathy for regular girls on a netball team who possibly have to endure potential disadvantage for one game than a woman who has to endure disadvantage for her entire life. Try to imagine what it's like to feel that you don't belong anywhere; to see people looking at you and knowing that they're thinking "what's that man doing here?". To fear being beaten up in the street (it still happens, way too often).
Whatever they've suffered in life, the girls in your team have no idea what it's like to experience that kind of disadvantage. If they play against this team again and they're expressing frustration over what happens on the court, I think it's your duty as an adult to explain to them why it's important that this woman is allowed to play. It could be a great lesson in empathy and acceptance. |
You're wasting your words David there is no shred of empathy here from this woman! |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| 1061 wrote: |
You're wasting your words David there is no shred of empathy here from this woman! |
I actually see a lot of empathy and conflicted emotion. I see someone who after weighing all the factors, has come down on one side of an issue that happens to be different to the one you've come down on. How about showing some respect and tolerance for someone elses views for a change? |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| If you can read the post before mine I was referring to was edited after my posting! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Yes, it was twice, in fact. but that had nothing to do with your post. I have nothing to hide. I've now chosen to ignore your trolling of my posts all over the boards, and this will be the last time I defend myself against your incessant bullying.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| 1061 wrote: |
You're wasting your words David there is no shred of empathy here from this woman!
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Jo has more empathy in her small tail-nail than you've had in your whole entire life while you rail at the world and hold death lotteries for your amusement on Facebook!!!
Did you manage to pocket any unused meds?
Jo has posted on this board for ten years and over that has earned the trust and respect of nearly all.
She's earned her place here, when did you blow-in Ghoul? 
Last edited by 3.14159 on Sun Aug 31, 2014 7:29 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| It was at time index 357241. |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| It is time index 3.14159, you moron! |
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KenH 
Joined: 24 Jan 2010
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| think positive wrote: | | Yes, it was twice, in fact. but that had nothing to do with your post. I have nothing to hide. I've now chosen to ignore your trolling of my posts all over the boards, and this will be the last time I defend myself against your incessant bullying. |
Fair call Jo, I have noticed he seems to make unnecessary comments on a number of your posts.
I might not agree with you in this case but I can understand your concerns.
As 3.14 says, you are respected on Nick's.
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Cheers big ears |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| KenH wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Yes, it was twice, in fact. but that had nothing to do with your post. I have nothing to hide. I've now chosen to ignore your trolling of my posts all over the boards, and this will be the last time I defend myself against your incessant bullying. |
Fair call Jo, I have noticed he seems to make unnecessary comments on a number of your posts.
I might not agree with you in this case but I can understand your concerns.
As 3.14 says, you are respected on Nick's. |
Thankyou, and I'll also add that the discussion has done me some good. I really have taken the constructive comments on board. And I really can see both sides.
When I posted the first post, it was more out of wow, didn't see that coming, not sure what to make of it. Reading back now I realize I kinda defended my point of view further than I even believed it, kind of backed into a corner, and not sure how to get out.
As Stui pointed out, decent umpire would stop any of the aggression, it's a shame the stadiums umpiring standards are so low! Also not helped by the mixed grades competition. And yes, I've come home pissed off many a time due to the over agression of some of the more scarily built females.
I've also realized that in the past I've been overly aggressive in putting my point of view out there at times, (though not often I don't think!) and I'll take that from this experience too.
So cheers Ken, much appreciated.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | 1061 wrote: |
You're wasting your words David there is no shred of empathy here from this woman!
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Jo has more empathy in her small tail-nail than you've had in your whole entire life while you rail at the world and hold death lotteries for your amusement on Facebook!!!
Did you manage to pocket any unused meds?
Jo has posted on this board for ten years and over that has earned the trust and respect of nearly all.
She's earned her place here, when did you blow-in Ghoul? |
Cheers mate, thankyou.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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