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Should this player have been allowed on the court?
Yes
68%
 68%  [ 11 ]
No, the physicality is an unfair advantage
31%
 31%  [ 5 ]
Any ideas for a third option welcome!
0%
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 16

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HAL 

Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.


Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:04 pm
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Time and money.
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The Prototype Virgo

Paint my face with a good-for-nothin smile.


Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Location: Hobart, Tasmania

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:06 pm
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The Olympics is actually allowing transgendered athletes now, even though there is an article that suggests there are none that are currently openly transgendered.

Article here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-mosier/no-openly-transgender-athletes-have-competed-in-the-olympics_b_4825102.html

An article about an athlete fighting discrimination: www.takepart.com/article/2014/03/13/transgender-athlete-takes-her-mark-against-discrimination

A wikipedia page that might be useful for the discussion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_verification_in_sports


I would guess that if an athlete is legally male or female then they're able to compete unless certain rules are in place that states otherwise due to being a transgendered athlete. I think the Olympics have said you need to be post-op for 4 years before you can compete in the Olympics. (not certain, heard something about it once.)

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Mugwump 



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Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:57 pm
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Wokko wrote:
I'd like to give a +1 on the praise for David's mode of discussion. It's refreshing to have someone discuss things in a level headed, civil manner even when faced with a diametrically opposed point of view.


+2. Whether one agrees with David's opinions or not, he is a model of courtesy, patience and devoid of arrogance or condescension. He advances his opinions through his arguments, but also through his way of conducting himself on here.

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swoop42 Virgo

Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?


Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:12 pm
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It's a game of amateur netball TP.

Perhaps open your heart, show some compassion towards this person and the struggles they would've had to contend with all there life and thank God you are lucky enough to have two kids who were born with a brain that matched there gender.

Imagine how the parents of this person feels knowing the stigma there child faces each and every day.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:18 pm
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Wokko wrote:
I'd like to give a +1 on the praise for David's mode of discussion. It's refreshing to have someone discuss things in a level headed, civil manner even when faced with a diametrically opposed point of view.


Good point and a good point taken in.

I have a friend who had the change and I have seen the things she has had to endure. I have read some discussions with views like TP's that made me red with anger as I read why she no longer goes to the Footy or has any interactions with her beloved Club. Whether TP's views are valid or not is a dead issue I think most of us agree that her views are not acceptable in Australian society these days.

If the post was about a race of people would people not call her a racist?
Oh well.

I will not apologise to TP but I will refrain from calling a spade a spade from now on because it's obvious to me people personally know Jo and are not prepared to call her out or allow anyone else to do so!
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:33 pm
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^

I'm not going to insult Jo because I happen to like her as a person and know that she isn't a bigot.

To expand slightly on what i said earlier, I get the fact that in general men have a physical advantage, but it doesn't apply as a flat rule across the board.

A professional female athlete would wup my arse at her sport, despite my supposed physical advantage. I know plenty of blokes who would get slaughtered if they tried to play AFL against a woman's AFL team because they are unco and have the muscle definition of a doughnut.

Potentially, for this kid, playing Netball for a female team, against females, was part of the journey of being accepted as female. I gather they had no real skill in the sport, maybe the aggression was masking something else like anxiety. I wouldn't want to deny them that.

The emotive response to seeing one of your kids flattened by someone who has a physical advantage is to question exactly as TP has. The logical and rational bit comes after the emotion cools a bit.

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:33 pm
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swoop42 wrote:
It's a game of amateur netball TP.

Perhaps open your heart, show some compassion towards this person and the struggles they would've had to contend with all there life and thank God you are lucky enough to have two kids who were born with a brain that matched there gender.

Imagine how the parents of this person feels knowing the stigma there child faces each and every day.


Believe me I give thanks every day for my 2 well adjusted normal healthy kids every day, and with friends who have children with various issues, and one close friend who lost their son at just 17, I don't take any thing for granted.

Please note i reckon I'd say the same thing as most on here, apart from the name calling, healthy discussion and disagreement are the way forward to change, until it happens to you!

I just asked junior again, and she said ' I didn't think anything of it until I got on the court, but then the sheer aggression and size of the body coming at me stopped me going for balls I know I could have got.' I said ' well what about the big Maori girls then?' She said 'I don't like that either.'

Fair enough.

True also though, that until your in that position you don't know how you will feel. I wasn't particularly fussed, I just thought it was an interesting topic. And indeed three pages in, it is!

We will play them again in the season, but not finals, so yeah, thanks for your input

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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:35 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
^

I'm not going to insult Jo because I happen to like her as a person and know that she isn't a bigot.

To expand slightly on what i said earlier, I get the fact that in general men have a physical advantage, but it doesn't apply as a flat rule across the board.

A professional female athlete would wup my arse at her sport, despite my supposed physical advantage. I know plenty of blokes who would get slaughtered if they tried to play AFL against a woman's AFL team because they are unco and have the muscle definition of a doughnut.

Potentially, for this kid, playing Netball for a female team, against females, was part of the journey of being accepted as female. I gather they had no real skill in the sport, maybe the aggression was masking something else like anxiety. I wouldn't want to deny them that.

The emotive response to seeing one of your kids flattened by someone who has a physical advantage is to question exactly as TP has. The logical and rational bit comes after the emotion cools a bit.


Nailed it!

Thanks Stui

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:43 pm
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think positive wrote:
stui magpie wrote:
^

I'm not going to insult Jo because I happen to like her as a person and know that she isn't a bigot.

To expand slightly on what i said earlier, I get the fact that in general men have a physical advantage, but it doesn't apply as a flat rule across the board.

A professional female athlete would wup my arse at her sport, despite my supposed physical advantage. I know plenty of blokes who would get slaughtered if they tried to play AFL against a woman's AFL team because they are unco and have the muscle definition of a doughnut.

Potentially, for this kid, playing Netball for a female team, against females, was part of the journey of being accepted as female. I gather they had no real skill in the sport, maybe the aggression was masking something else like anxiety. I wouldn't want to deny them that.

The emotive response to seeing one of your kids flattened by someone who has a physical advantage is to question exactly as TP has. The logical and rational bit comes after the emotion cools a bit.


Nailed it!

Thanks Stui


Yeah thanks Stui Rolling Eyes
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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:45 pm
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Oh stui I forgot how many drinks do I owe you for that!
Laughing Laughing Laughing Wink

I'm out of goats

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KenH Gemini



Joined: 24 Jan 2010


PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:23 am
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The thing that disappointed me was that Jo kept on describing this girl as him. You can never accept that this person is a female if you keep referring her as him.
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:31 am
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KenH wrote:
The thing that disappointed me was that Jo kept on describing this girl as him. You can never accept that this person is a female if you keep referring her as him.


Fair enough

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AN_Inkling 



Joined: 06 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:22 pm
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I'm sure that we all accept that a transgender person should be allowed to play team sports. If only male or female teams are available, then the female team is clearly where they should be. Mixed teams are also a possibility, but I imagine they'd be fewer in number.

It's possible that they will have a physical advantage, but we don't segregate sports based on race even though it's clear that white men have no vertical leap and can not compete with their black counterparts. I'd like to think that, especially at an amateur level, understanding and inclusiveness would be more important than all players being matched for physical capability.

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:21 am
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^^^ thoroughly disagree, AI. I went to a preseason match at Arden Street about 23 years ago and saw a young, unknown Carey playing on Shane Morwood. Carey clearly had an unfair physical advantage and I wanted him banned (or cleared to Collingwood) - or, possibly, both.
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think positive Libra

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:22 am
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AN_Inkling wrote:
I'm sure that we all accept that a transgender person should be allowed to play team sports. If only male or female teams are available, then the female team is clearly where they should be. Mixed teams are also a possibility, but I imagine they'd be fewer in number.

It's possible that they will have a physical advantage, but we don't segregate sports based on race even though it's clear that white men have no vertical leap and can not compete with their black counterparts. I'd like to think that, especially at an amateur level, understanding and inclusiveness would be more important than all players being matched for physical capability.


why clearly? would they be allowed at Olympic level? cos they damn well shouldn't be.

no, "we" don't segregate sports based on race, but "we" do segregate sports based on sex. and its not because one side is thinking about lipstick and heels, and the other beer and hunting. its because the physicality of male and female bodies is very different.im not talking about the dangly bits. im talking about muscle development and strength, etc etc.

by the way, the stadium has a full quota of mixed teams that play the same night.

understanding and inclusion is fine if it works both ways. charging players like a malee bull, and yelling like Ali is not trying to fit in! we are not talking a kid, or a 120 lb weakling, this transgender was at least 25, and built like a man in their prime. this was physical power that your average Mary doesn't, cant have. its not a matter of matching physical capability, there is plenty of differential there within those born female. just like comparing buddy franklin to the bulldogs murphy. it must be terrible to have that going on in your head. but it was still a male body playing a female game, against other females, who have no choice in the matter. or do their rights not count?

I used to play mixed, A grade. its a whle different ball game to standard netball. basically you duck for cover every time the guys come near you, they play like its footy. its very funny to watch, but players get hurt. and its way more physical now than when I played it 25 years ago. those players choose to take that risk.

as for amateur comp not apparently mattering, that's bull shit. it matters more. just like junior footy, its important to protect the players. at amateur level, the bloody umps are amateur too! and because its mixed A B, the B teams are allowed to get away with heaps, stepping, played ball, and yes, contact, big time!

go down your local stadium and watch the 2 top A grade teams go at it. all this "footy is becoming netball" shit will fly right out the window!

there is a reason boys are stopped from playing in the girls netball teams at 13. its a valid reason. there is a reason that men and woman do not compete against each other, in sprinting, running, track and field. and its not about brain chemistry. its about body physicality, and no amount of hormone treatment will change that.

quite frankly, why not let any male play then?

and YES I recognize that she thinks like a female, wants to be able to live like a female, but her body chemistry is still a male body. chess would be a different matter all together.

those saying, oh no that's just fine; wait til its your kid out there. ive coached these kids since they were tots, they may be 17-20 now, but they are still MY kids.

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