Gender question
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| Should this player have been allowed on the court? |
| Yes |
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68% |
[ 11 ] |
| No, the physicality is an unfair advantage |
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31% |
[ 5 ] |
| Any ideas for a third option welcome! |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 16 |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Theoretically, the issue is whether the history of this person gives her an unfair and irregular advantage in a game that is premised on a particular attribute, ie that of being physically female, with the associated musculature , abilities etc. Sounds as though it does, and so theoretically, she should not be playing.
Practically, though, the girl concerned has a hell of a lot to live with that the rest of us will never have to manage, and we should try to embrace her her courage in something more important than netball at this level. . The game, in that context, is not important enough to marginalise and humiliate her further. If it were an Olympic game, I would probably feel differently.
I'd also hope that the girl concerned might reflect that her unique and irregularly acquired abilities impair the game for others, and make a personal sacrifice of not playing this particular sport. There are probably other sports where the gender advantage is less acute, after all. But if she wants to play, let her play and enjoy feeling that you're making her complex journey easier.
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Great post
Agree with most
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Here's Joe Rogan going into the issue with a transgender fighter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6_7BOGUXHM
No she shouldn't be able to play women's sports. If we are going to segregate women and mens sports then transgender people should have their own division. There should be no discrimination in general society, we can treat them as women but sports should be another matter. |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| 1061 wrote: | And still you misgender her.
What a bigot! |
Personally, I'm just amazed how you can be so tolerant in some ways and bigoted in others.
| Wokko wrote: | Here's Joe Rogan going into the issue with a transgender fighter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6_7BOGUXHM
No she shouldn't be able to play women's sports. If we are going to segregate women and mens sports then transgender people should have their own division. There should be no discrimination in general society, we can treat them as women but sports should be another matter. |
Great, and play team sport with, what, four other people? Your proposal would effectively mean that transgender people don't get to play team sport any more. Because clearly, more marginalisation is exactly what they need.
Transsexuals are transitioning from one gender (their external biological sex) to another (their cognitive biological sex). They are not transitioning to some special third gender. If a male-to-female transsexual wants to live as a woman, she should be allowed to live like a woman, not like some outcast who is suddenly ostracised from both categories.
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Last edited by David on Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| David wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | And still you misgender her.
What a bigot! |
Personally, I'm just amazed how you can be so tolerant in some ways and bigoted in others. |
So this thread is about me? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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If you want to make it about yourself or another poster, feel free. Most of us would prefer to stick to the topic.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| I'm disappointed in you David of all people on Nicks I'd expect you not too allow some of the comments here to go through without damning condemnation. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | And still you misgender her.
What a bigot! |
Personally, I'm just amazed how you can be so tolerant in some ways and bigoted in others.
| Wokko wrote: | Here's Joe Rogan going into the issue with a transgender fighter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6_7BOGUXHM
No she shouldn't be able to play women's sports. If we are going to segregate women and mens sports then transgender people should have their own division. There should be no discrimination in general society, we can treat them as women but sports should be another matter. |
Great, and play team sport with, what, four other people? Your proposal would effectively mean that transgender people don't get to play team sport any more. Because clearly, more marginalisation is exactly what they need.
Transsexuals are transitioning from one gender (their external biological sex) to another (their cognitive biological sex). They are not transitioning to some special third gender. If a male-to-female transsexual wants to live as a woman, she should be allowed to live like a woman, not like some outcast who is suddenly ostracised from both categories. |
But there is an undeniable advantage in physical sports in being born male, no matter what hormones or operations you have later. Do you think it's fair for Fallon Fox to be beating up Cisgendered women when she was born a man with the associated development, bone density, joint structure etc?
We shouldn't have to bend over backwards to accommodate someone if that accommodation negatively impacts even more people. People crying 'Bigot' at anyone with an opposing viewpoint doesn't help either. If there's one constant in this it's the intolerance of the 'tolerant'. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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They're voluntarily participating in a sport which requires them to be punched in the face by women whose biceps probably weigh more than me. Cry me a river!
It's not bending over backwards. It's just treating transwomen as they are, as ordinary women. Is that so hard?
| 1061 wrote: | | I'm disappointed in you David of all people on Nicks I'd expect you not too allow some of the comments here to go through without damning condemnation. |
On the contrary, I disagree strongly with her comments and have said as much. Would you like me to call her names?
You've written some pretty dreadful things on here about Muslims in the past, and I don't recall ever calling you a bigot.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Wokko wrote: |
But there is an undeniable advantage in physical sports in being born male, no matter what hormones or operations you have later. Do you think it's fair for Fallon Fox to be beating up Cisgendered women when she was born a man with the associated development, bone density, joint structure etc?
We shouldn't have to bend over backwards to accommodate someone if that accommodation negatively impacts even more people. |
that's exactly my point of view.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | And still you misgender her.
What a bigot! |
Personally, I'm just amazed how you can be so tolerant in some ways and bigoted in others.
| Wokko wrote: | Here's Joe Rogan going into the issue with a transgender fighter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k6_7BOGUXHM
No she shouldn't be able to play women's sports. If we are going to segregate women and mens sports then transgender people should have their own division. There should be no discrimination in general society, we can treat them as women but sports should be another matter. |
Great, and play team sport with, what, four other people? Your proposal would effectively mean that transgender people don't get to play team sport any more. Because clearly, more marginalisation is exactly what they need.
Transsexuals are transitioning from one gender (their external biological sex) to another (their cognitive biological sex). They are not transitioning to some special third gender. If a male-to-female transsexual wants to live as a woman, she should be allowed to live like a woman, not like some outcast who is suddenly ostracised from both categories. |
yes, but David, the mental part, wether gay, lesbian, woman in a mans body, or man in a womans body, fair enough, but its still a MANS body. with all the physical advantages that brings to sport. woman and mens sport are separated for reasons, be it football, basketball, swimming, and yes netbasll.
no one should be discriminated against, white, black, red, yellow, fat thin, bald, gay, im for equal rights for all, including furry and feathered! one should not get their rights at the expense of others.
I can see the point, its traumatic, and sad for sure, but is it fair?
I get called names on here all the time when mostly I just come from the angle, is it fair? that's my point now. its still a mans body.
thankyou David, for your usual, calm, response. I posed the question purely because it was something that happened, and im not sure what the response should be!
id love to get back to just being able to discuss things we all have different opinions on, without the accompanying shit fights!!I think we all would.
cheers, and I found you another boring book! 
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| I'd like to give a +1 on the praise for David's mode of discussion. It's refreshing to have someone discuss things in a level headed, civil manner even when faced with a diametrically opposed point of view. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Thanks, both, and same to you. 
Jo, if the woman in question has been taking hormones and had surgery (not something everyone chooses to do) then I'm not sure you can really say she has a man's body. Anyway, what makes a body a man's body? Is it strength? I wouldn't be surprised if you could beat me in an arm wrestle! Is it having a penis? Whose business is that?
Obviously, there's a significant average difference in strength and height between men and women, and that's the main reason why we have segregated sports. But I think that model has plenty of room for people who differ from a supposed norm, whether it's a question of physique or external gender. Basically, any harm here is far outweighed by the good. If we're taking fairness, excluding transsexuals from team sports is much more unfair than having an unusually strong woman on the team.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | Thanks, both, and same to you.
Jo, if the woman in question has been taking hormones and had surgery (not something everyone chooses to do) then I'm not sure you can really say she has a man's body. Anyway, what makes a body a man's body? Is it strength? I wouldn't be surprised if you could beat me in an arm wrestle! Is it having a penis? Whose business is that?
Obviously, there's a significant average difference in strength and height between men and women, and that's the main reason why we have segregated sports. But I think that model has plenty of room for people who differ from a supposed norm, whether it's a question of physique or external gender. Basically, any harm here is far outweighed by the good. If we're taking fairness, excluding transsexuals from team sports is much more unfair than having an unusually strong woman on the team. |
hehe! might have to try the wrestle thing!! but im left handed so I might say NOT FAIR!!
Cheers I respect your opinion xx
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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