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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Wokko wrote: | | David wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | For instance, on your Germany analogy, I'm not sure what makes you so confident people had enough information; that sounds like a received rather than a researched idea. If people are hopelessly ignorant today, just imagine how ignorant they'd have been in the 1940s. Just look at how cringeworthy and dumb war propaganda from that period looks today! People apparently would've believed anything flashed before them on a screen. |
And yet, isn't this kind of ignorance the stuff that critical mass is made of? It's the difference between us voting ourselves into a North Korea or a progressive technocracy. We need such simplistic views in order for society to function.
While I also value humility—as you say, it is vital that we allow ourselves from time to time to say "I don't know"—we can't lose sight of the fact that there are a good many people out there who are considerably less knowledgeable and endlessly willing to speak their kind. This is why it's important for me to see public debate as a process of argument and counterargument, assertion and correction, as opposed to hesitance and self-censorship (or worse still, censorship of others).
I'm not sure why you say this Hegelian method of arguing leads to a "might makes right" conclusion. I would have thought encouraging the more thoughtful non-specialists to hold their peace until they've done field work is even more likely to lead to that scenario. Surely, after all, this would stop us from passing comment on 90% of the topics we're interested in, while Jacqui Lambie proceeds to regale us with her curious interpretation of Sharia Law. That sounds disastrous to me.
Speaking of Lambie, this is neither here nor there, but I've noticed a trend over the last decade of conservatives (particularly on the far right) beginning to embrace China and Russia. It's obvious why they approve of Putin's regime—even those still obsessed with Cold War rivalries probably masturbate to his economic policy when they know no-one's looking—but the appeal of China seems slightly less obvious. What I do know is that I'll never forget my former One Nation-voting Dad telling me last year that he considers the modern Chinese model (or, at least, his impression of it) to be the ideal form of what a society should be. Authoritarian capitalism seems to tickle his fancy. Just an anecdote, but just shows how strange the human mind can be.
There's much more to your post to respond to, but I have to go to work.  |
Too much in this thread to go through but I can help you with why the Right is falling a little in love with China. China isn't a communist utopia, it far more resembles what one might have imagined National Socialist Germany might have become if it had won the war. Those with a lean towards the Nazi ideal (sans the Racial element) tend to favour China.
Putin is finding popularity by standing as a bulwark against the perceived 'degeneracy' of the West; homosexuality, socialism, decay of family values. A patriarch and protector. This resonates fairly strongly with certain disenfranchised sections of the Right.
Of course, this is all just observational philosophy, but that's how I see it. |
You might want to wade through the thread, because it's about the arbitrary triviality of "what we see" when it comes to China. China looks like nothing else before it, least of all Orwellian cliche. It's part Confucian, part Soviet, part imperial Japan, part Park Jung-hee, part standard Rostow, part merchant, part core-periphery, and so on.
Assuming something so big and complex has a high chance of going awry is very different from pretending you understand it and can explain exactly why it will go awry.
Far better to direct our energies towards helping our fellow humans succeed. My small contribution to that is exposing the menace of nationalism at home and abroad.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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MASSIVE THREAD BUMP/
Check the dates, prior to this post it's old stuff, but old stuff worth revisiting in the current climate.
China has cracked the sads with people trying to hold them to account and not accepting their attempts to re-write history.
First they whack massive tarrifs on our Barley imports, then they ban imports from 4 abattoirs. Flexing their muscles as a threat.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-05-13/china-import-suspension-reminder-bejing-inflict-economic-pain/12243560
If it wasn't clear 6 years ago, it should be now. China is an authoritarian state, it's not even a pretense of a democracy and that's not changing anytime in the next few decades.
We really need to diversify our exports, we cannot afford to be economically reliant on the CCP. Yeah, trade with them but don't for a second think they're a friend or ally or future generations of Australians will all be required to speak Cantonese or Mandarin.
#Fuckchina
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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To be fair, Trump's been doing this exact same kind of thing to China for years on the pretence of saving American production, and PTID's been pretty much the only one here consistently speaking out against it. So if you see muscle-flexing through trade restrictions as bastardry, I'm not sure why that would only go one way.
Anyway, this is the situation we find ourselves in: as a tiny bug that can be flicked away by China in an instant if we try to bite it. So yes, I agree that, in theory, we should be avoiding putting our eggs in the China basket and distancing ourselves from them as far as is economically possible. A country like that should be isolated and given incentives to get its act together. But I fear that what that means in practice is to seek even closer economic ties with the US. And if that's the case – given the US is a sinking ship with, at present, little interest in propping up its client states – then we really are between a rock and a hard place.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Maintain close ties with the US as an ally and diversify our economic interests, expand existing markets in Europe and other parts of Asia.
Read the article I linked to, China has been doing this shit for ages too and their plans for the future aren't influenced by Trump or the USA but by what they think they can do.
Read up on their Belt and Road stuff. These farkers are intent on world domination.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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Great thread bump, Stui. I was thinking of starting a thread on China, but haven't got around to doing it.
We need to expand our trade relations with various countries. This includes:
- USA
- Japan
- South Korea
- Taiwan
- Singapore
- Indonesia
- India
- UK
- EU member states
It should concern every Australian that China accounts for 36% of our export wealth which is more than Japan, South Korea and the US combined. Our universities make up to $12 billion a year in fees from Chinese students who come out to study here.
Unfortunately, I don't think much will change because there's simply too many vested interests in the country that want this trading relationship to continue. We only need to look at examples such as Twiggy Forest and Kerry Stokes to reinforce this.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ The trouble, of course, is that you can't just subtract that 36% (or a part thereof) from China and move it somewhere else. That's where the demand is, and if South Korea, India, the EU et al were clamouring for our resources then we presumably wouldn't be in this situation. I definitely agree with you that we should push back hard against the local vested interests like the miners, though; it's long past time to put them back in their box.
Personally, if it came down to a question of whether to take an economic hit or preserve sovereignty and civil liberties – and that's quite possibly a scenario we may face in the years to come – I'd choose the former every time. But the longer this dynamic goes on, the more I doubt that we get to enjoy both the prosperity that the China economic relationship has brought us and autonomy. So there are some hard choices ahead.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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You can potentially move that 36% elsewhere, just likely at not the same profit. China may not have more demand for stuff than others, they're just more willing to pay over the odds, when it suits them. That's what makes them dangerous.
You need to sacrifice a few % of profit to broaden the horizon.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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Oh goody a thread titled “ saying the unsayable about China” I’ll be able to stay on topic no problem at all 
Thanks Stui!
#fuckchina
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
Last edited by Morrigu on Wed May 13, 2020 9:42 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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Can we export Twiggy to FuckChina?
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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At this point I'd be happy to nationalize all Chinese owned property and business in Australia.
****. China. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Wokko wrote: | At this point I'd be happy to nationalize all Chinese owned property and business in Australia.
****. China. |
I'm very happy to reserve that as a viable option, particularly where it comes to primary producers. I could give a fat rats if they overpaid for a Toorak property, but farms and associated entities they can %$^Ł$%^&%% right off.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | Maintain close ties with the US as an ally and diversify our economic interests, expand existing markets in Europe and other parts of Asia.
Read the article I linked to, China has been doing this shit for ages too and their plans for the future aren't influenced by Trump or the USA but by what they think they can do.
Read up on their Belt and Road stuff. These farkers are intent on world domination. |
You couldn't be more wrong on the influence of the US on Chinese nationalist consciousness, though. Have you heard the discourse? Chinese nationalism is a victimhood-based nationalism that is massively reactionary towards the US, as well as Japan and Britain before it. Do you think that Chinese folk aren't aware of being despised for centuries by Britain, the US and Europe, as well as Japan and even Korea, as 'dirty Chinese', 'copiers', 'cheap labour', and the garbage dump of dirty and dangerous industry?
The problem is as always nationalism, which gives a particularly dangerous form to power because it aligns with the resources of the state, as victims of Anglo-America have long known. But step back and look at it in context for a moment: imagine lecturing China on imperialism when five minutes ago on the latest racist pretext you invaded the Middle East, killed hundreds of thousands of people, stole their natural resources, and created millions of refugees? Five minutes ago after centuries of the very same, all waved away as of it were an aberration rather than a pattern.
Then, when you have to start negotiating a little, and can't get everything you want on demand, you spit the dummy and start punishing the entire world economy in a juvenile no-win trade war all the while undermining multilateralism and relationships with old allies such as the EU because you've driven yourself paranoid and see everyone as a threat.
It's as if in the six years this was written it still hasn't occurred that once other people are powerful you can't just push them around like scum and in fact never ought to have done so to begin with. It's hopelessly undignified to face a rival and dismiss them as evil when the fact is you simply can't stand having to compete with them, and miss demeaning them for sport.
Maybe not you, but plenty of others. Let's be honest; Chinese nationalists are annoying because they're half right. Only half right, but it's an irritating half right. And while we're at it let's even be brutally honest: the main worry here is that China will behave like us towards us. Chickens, home to roost, etc.
And when it comes to trade, you've been deathly quiet on trade wars and protectionism but you've very quickly gone from disinterested to outraged. There's a credibility gap there, frankly. Trump's trade wars were damaging your wealth long before and far more than China's bout of juvenile retaliation which apparently has you in a state of apoplexy far greater than the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq combined.
Has anyone even visited China and advanced their knowledge of what's happening there since 2014? More time spent knowing eff all about something hardly counts as an advanced qualification in the subject.
From afar, the self pity looks pretty ugly. Lost wars and great recessions brought on by an inability to break bread with others as equals, both within the country and without, and to make tough economic decisions for the long-term good, and to elect vaguely qualified and competent leaders, hardly warrants sympathy.
As for Australia, how many years of allowing the Glibs to turn government into a revolving door for the fossil fuels and mining industries does it take to blame China for its own democratic shortcomings? How many years of spreading hysterical anti-science garbage and undermining international climate change efforts in order to squeeze the last drop out of coal does it take to blame China for its own failure to pivot to new industries?
It's more than a bit unsavoury to hear people sooking now about dependency on China when five minutes ago all that was fine and dandy when Little Johnny was being handed his Man of Steel award for invading Iraq and stealing its resources to win contracts and curry favour, and assets and salaries were riding high on the back of mining and fossil fuels.
Not a whimper when the going was good but the time was right to show discipline, buttress superannuation, and pivot to a more stable and balanced economic portfolio. Not a bleeding whimper. Just middle class handouts, the undermining of necessary steps such as a mining windfall tax, the wrecking of essential new-industry infrastructure like the NBN, a refusal to increase urban density at the behest of inner-ring money to rein in urban sprawl, and the defunding of important endeavours such as local council forestry management plans during climate change-boosted droughts.
Yet still, even then, Australia is an amazing country. Lacking in diligence and discipline, maybe. But still amazing. Throwing a tanty over China surfaces the worst Anglospheric trait of all, however: self-entitlement.
Of course, if I were talking to Chinese folks I would be going on about the nonsense of classical racism, which still holds far too much currency across Asia, and the mistakes that inevitably follow an inciting of nationalist victimhood and the lashing out that follows. I would be talking about the high road, not the Belt and Road, and the pathetic reflex to nationalism and racism that has accompanied the sorry decline of the Anglo-America from George W. and Brexit through to Trump. I would talk about actual leadership, not fantasies of leadership, using Trump and Johnson as contemporary examples of what happens when you start wallowing in victimhood. And I would make a point that a flailing Anglo-America doesn't somehow grant you the quality of life enjoyed by Germans, which is another level altogether and requires something far more sophisticated than sheer power, namely the ability of more citizens — all preferably — to compete fairly.
Until we grasp the idea of mutual wins, and let go of this childish Old Darwinian kill-or-be-killed BS, and remember we have more advanced and sensible parts of our brains, we're all screwed.
On the up side, given the increasing balance of power there has never been a better moment for a genuine multilateralism. China is still a poor country trying to make good; the swagger only goes so deep, and we've all still got plenty to gain from each other.
And once again, Australia is still doing amazingly well, so this looks a lot like the petulant self-entitlement that started with children overboard and somehow never stopped. But there have been no idiotic Brexits or Trumps — vicious political capture by fossil fuels and mining, and destructive morons like Abbott notwithstanding. Let's also not forget with Australia the hysteria is significantly due to the decline of the US and the security blanket it provides on the one hand, and the neglect of broader-based economic development to keep up with people's quality of life expectations on the other. And neither of those are China's fault.
But if the Anglosphere keeps electing unfit nutters like George W., Trump, Johnson and Abbott, and dim Trump-lite wannabes who even see the EU as a bitter enemy to be undermined and opposed at every turn, then I'm not sure how productive our conversations with China are going to be. You just can't begin with the self-entitled assumption that somehow you deserve more than the average Chinese bloke.
It all starts with us getting a grip, looking in the mirror, facing the reality that everyone else thinks they're as important as we think we are, and electing serious leaders who can negotiate mutual wins accordingly.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Your wrong about being glib when things were sold off, I don’t know anyone who thought it was a good idea, my husband ranted about it, same as the privatisation of Telstra etc. none of it was ever a good idea.
Getting over the constant racist calls, I don’t hate Chinese people, I do hate China and the misery they have subjected the world to. I hate the callous way they allow animals to be treated. I also hate the US laws on many things, such as their wild animal policies, (and it may be that Tiger King will now force changes) and those god awful people who damage horses legs to make them step up. And Australia for allowing jump racing despite the carnage. It’s not racism, it’s evil shit done by a country that happens to be a race that’s not the same as mine. I don’t hate muslins, I do hate isis. And I do hate Umpires ever $Ł$%^%%$ colour they are .
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Dark Beanie
Joined: 06 Feb 2004
Location: A galaxy far, far away.
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The threats that the Chinese student tap will be blocked and they will go somewhere else is amusing.
They are studying in Australia to get Permanent Residency and/or for their parents to buy property. Once the borders are open, they will be back as long as the PR carrot is dangled in front of them.
As for the threats against beef, milk, wine exports - it is the Chinese that want our goods as Australia is seen as a clean country probably even more so that we have (so far) been able to limit the spread of COVID-19.
And the CCP mouthpieces have said they will get iron ore from Brazil instead of Australia. They have always been able to get iron ore from Brazil, so it must be of more benefit to China to source it from Australia.
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If you are foolish enough to be contented, don't show it, but just grumble with the rest. - Jerome K Jerome |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Brazilian iron ore is (a) more expensive, and (b) limited in volume. Most of Brazil's iron ore has to go through pre-processing to make it suitable for use (where most Australian iron ore can be simply bulldozed up and loaded on the ship). This adds to the production cost. Secondly, it costs more to transport ore from Brazil to China because of the extra distance. This doesn't mean that Vale (the main Brazilian producer and one of the three world iron giants, alongside Rio and BHP) charges more, but it does mean that they make less per tonne delivered to China, and are correspondingly less interested in selling extra.
In any case, Brazilian production alone is not enough to supply China's demand. China has to buy Australian iron ore.
Not so for practically everything else we sell there though.
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