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GBN! Get Bomber Now!!!

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John Wren Virgo

"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."


Joined: 15 Jul 2007


PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2014 10:32 pm
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35forever wrote:
John Wren wrote:
35forever wrote:

I simply believe that after 45 years of studying the game I know how it works better than you do, better than most people if I'm being honest.


really. Rolling Eyes

Um, yes, mate... really!


certified card carry member of the dkataf club.

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35forever 

"I feel sick - dada dada dada da"


Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Physical=Sunshine Coast -- Mental=Vic Park

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:24 pm
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Dear Supersewede
Quote:
You state in a very factual way that re-builds never bring success but that new coaches do.
No, I said in OUR case, and i'm right. It's really rather dishonest to misquote me and then attempt to build a case on the misquote. There was no 'rebuild' after 2005, we had some great picks because we had a lousy 2 years and we used them. Some players retired which was just natural attrition. How is that a rebuild? Our top tier of players, who had us on top of the ladder just 6 games after that awful year remained largely the same: Buckley, O'Bree, Rocca, Licca, Taz, Lockyer, Dids, Neon, Fraser, Maxy, Holland, Johnno, Clement, Presti, Swanny, Lonie & Richards. We were back to No.1 with just 3 new players. Rebuild?

The word 'rebuild' was never used. A two year failure is NOT a reason to get rid of a proven coach who had brought us so much success in such a short time. A 3 year failure from a coach who inherited the best Collingwood side in modern history is rather different, don't you think?

Quote:
I’m a little sad that we are not playing finals, but in all honesty I don’t expect that to happen every year.
Sounds like you & I experience the phenomenon of being a Collingwood supporter in a very similar way, I too am over the moon when we win & down for a day or two when we don't, and I too don't expect to play finals every year, no one who lived through the 80's & 90's could, however I'm absolutely bloody livid that we look like missing finals just three years after the best year I've ever had in 45 years as a Magpie. I will never forget that season despite circumstances stealing the flag from us, and I'd give anything to have more years like that. A very few people stole that chance from us and now the best we can hope for is a couple more years in the wilderness and possibly making it back to the top, but the fact is we're just one of many sides hoping to build success, and the new sides have been practically handed success ion a silver platter.
Still, I do want to point out that the 'glass half full' folks are talking about how we've missed out on finals when all we have to do is get past Hawthorn, who are pretty much playing a dead rubber (unless Sydney lose by heaps and they win by a hundred or so but they still have a home final booked and who they play would be decided by the Port/Freo game anyway) and we're quite likely to pinch 8th and play finals. after that it's not impossible that we could play Port, Sydney & Geelong, all of whom we know we can beat, then meet North in the Granny. If that happened we could have a flag under Buckley THIS year, which changes everything. Sure, it's unlikely, especially the very first bit, but it could happen. Does anyone here think for a minute that I wouldn’t be happy about that, even though it would cement Buckley as coach for the next decade???

I'd be so far over the moon it ain't funny, but although I do have hope - hell, part of me thinks we could actually beat Hawthorn, though I can't figure out how - I won't be borrowing against the house to chuck the proceeds into my Sportsbet account!

Quote:
Now isn’t it just possible that when these people are voting, they are actually voting for some sort of stability in the coaching position?
Actually those who've given reasons are mostly saying that they just think Bucks should be given another season, I said the same at the start of 2013, but not after it finished.

Quote:
Fortunately the people entrusted with the welfare of the club, i.e. the board, probably wiser heads than both yours and mine, will have to decide that question and perhaps act on it.
Those people are the ones who pulled the 'succession' debacle in the first place, and have to act in their own interests even if the club's interests are different. If Eddie & co unseated Buckley they would be admitting their error and no one in such positions EVER does that. I've been on enough boards to know that politics makes for some incredibly dumb decisions, and believe me this IS politics.

Quote:
You might call me a simpleton, or one who has NFI,
Even if I did think that, which I don't, I wouldn’t say so, as I think abusing people over the internet is about as cowardly as it gets.
Finally, I don't doubt Ed knows more than me about running a footy club as I've never run one, what's more I've written reams on here defending the guy when others have slagged him off. But he made a mistake when he pushed the concession through, and I think he knows it, but he can't do anything about it even if he knew it would bring success. he has indeed done great things for the club, but in this matter he is compromised.

Enjoy what's left of the season, and I hope you enjoy next year even more.

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35forever 

"I feel sick - dada dada dada da"


Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Physical=Sunshine Coast -- Mental=Vic Park

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:45 pm
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Breadcrawl wrote:
35forever wrote:
Again, my apologies for the length, but I have to address each poster
@breadcrawl: Yes, I did say the ladder don't change much after Rd.10. Glad you remembered that! So you're giving me Richmond & West coast. Both can't make it, can they? So you're saying that Richmond hanging on for 8th,(maybe), and ONLY because we performed far worse than ANYONE could've guessed DISproves my point? Seriously? I'd say I nailed it, yet again!



You tried to imply that by giving us a tough early fixture the AFL could entrench us in the bottom eight and cost us a good ladder position. That wherever you are positioned in Round 10 is about where you will finish.

The season has totally disproved your point because being 8-3 did not entrench us in the Top 4 or even the Top 8, now did it?

Port have fallen late in the season, and West Coast and Richmond have completely contradicted your contention by rising from the bottom four to challenge for the eight.

It often happens the way you suggested it would, there are sound and logical reasons for this, but it isn't guaranteed and in the face of a body of evidence which has turned up after the argument that proves it isn't guaranteed you continue to consider that you 'nailed it, yet again!'.

This says it all I feel


Oh Dear, we're being just a tad pedantic again, and not reading the words in front of us, neither!! As you pointed out, I said the top 8 doesn't change MUCH, and I was one hundred percent right! All that changed is that Gold Coast fell over & we slumped in a way that not one single pundit predicted. No one! I thought we might slip a bit, maybe to 5th or 6th, but never dreamed we'd tumble all the way out of the 8, did you? Did anyone here?
So what happened? We & gold Coast tumbled out, Richmond and Essendon snuck in. If we manage to beat Hawthorn & get back in that's ONE, 1, Uno, Un, single, change to the composition of the Round 10 ladder! If that doesn't prove my point perfectly I'll be stuffed if I know what does!!

Sheesh!

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Az 



Joined: 25 Sep 2013


PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:58 pm
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Brenton Sanderson has officially put his hat in the ring to chase Bomber for next season.
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collie dog 

RIP Shelby 11-10-13


Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Location: Shelby Christmas dog

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:02 pm
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Mate Eddie wouldn't know a good coach if he fell over one. Pity Kochie didn't support the Victorian Magpies.
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35forever 

"I feel sick - dada dada dada da"


Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Physical=Sunshine Coast -- Mental=Vic Park

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 8:57 pm
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ThePieMind wrote:
What'sinaname wrote:
ThePieMind wrote:
@35forever
MATE if Bucks has lost the players why is it they have not left in droves.
We have virtually re-signed every one - seriously you have nothing to support this contention.


And go where? How many people hate their job / boss but stay because the pay is good and change is a scary proposition. I would assume 90% of players would prefer certainty (but hate their job) than risk everything for happiness.


Pendles, Swan, Cloke Grundy, BK, Broomy, all hate Bucks but signed on because they can't find another club.
You cannot be serious, all of them could have EASILY found another club.

Who said anything about hate? And who said 'every' player was unhappy? When did 'hate' enter the argument? I believe Pendles is happy with the deal he got, he's captain & the obvious guy to play Phonse Kyne to Buckley's McHale. I believe some of the kids are happy with Bucks too, guys like Langdon & Sweeper have done well under him, their first AFL coach. The ones that aren't happy with the leadership are the mid to older guys like Swanny, H, Clokey, Ball, and a few others. Now if that were even slightly true what does that give you in terms of the playing group? That's right, DIVISION. What's the worst thing any group of people can have? You guessed it! The minute it became apparent that the succession would cause any kind of division among the players the plug should've been pulled instantly. To not do so was be a huge mistake. Divided teams just don't win. In the end Buckley's coaching ability isn't the biggest problem at Collingwood. A great side, playing for each other, can win even with Mickey Mouse as coach. The guys who were the biggest fans of Mick are necessarily the older guys, Swan, Ball, Lumumba etc. They don't have the currency of guys like Beamer Pendles & Sidey, and they saw what happened to Dids, Jolly, Kraks, Neon, etc. Why take the chance?
And lets be clear, I don't believe that the divisions are overt. They're not sitting in groups after training or going to games on separate busses. In fact it could be as much subconscious as conscious. These guys played with Buckley and weren't close mates, but they were close mates with the discards mentioned above as well as with Daisy and Heater. Bucks the player, champion that he was, wasn't a big party guy, he just worked hard and then worked harder. I'm not suggesting they actively dislike him, I'm suggesting they wanted Mick to stay and are unhappy with the departure of so many of the guys who made playing for Collingwood the best experience of their lives. I also believe that Maxy had a bit to do with it. He was Mick's man, and I believe they wanted him to continue as captain. Have we gotten an explanation from the club as to why the captaincy wasn't decided by the playing group, as is usually the case and was going to be the case again? Seems strange, but the timing of Maxy's retirement and our sudden form slump is stranger still. If a significant group wanted Maxy to continue as captain that would explain this extraordinary season better than any theory I've heard thus far. Why do we think the season changed so markedly after rd. 12? What happened? Any better theories?
OK, time for Rd.23, will it be the usual 13 to 25 goal flogging? I have a tinge of a good feeling, but not much confidence in it!

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Big T 



Joined: 18 Oct 2003
Location: Torino, Italy

PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:10 pm
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collie dog wrote:
Mate Eddie wouldn't know a good coach if he fell over one. Pity Kochie didn't support the Victorian Magpies.


He got mick, mick got a flag. Eddie 1, Collie 0.

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35forever 

"I feel sick - dada dada dada da"


Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Physical=Sunshine Coast -- Mental=Vic Park

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:01 am
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@ThePieMind: Oh dear, flawed arguments all over the place! Your circumstantial case that Leading Teams brought success to Syd, Haw, & Geel, is demonstrably no stronger than mine about Buckley & injuries. You have three teams using LT and having success, but not a shred that they were the key, I have 3 years of incredible injury numbers beginning when Buckley took over and the fact that soft tissue injuries can be caused by training methods.I also have the distinct possibility that Butters resigned in disgust with Buckley's methods. Further, I am thoroughly convinced that it's not JUST the training methods that caused the injuries, players who are lacking in confidence & happiness are more prone to injury than players with confidence who are happy with their leaders. And PS: the commentators have been talking about our injury list since we started losing and have been suggesting a link to the coaching regime for just as long. The "bad luck" theory loses traction with every week of injuries we suffer. At what point will your mind open to the idea? I'm open to the idea that LT can be successful, I just never thought it suited us. In any event, the idea that your theory is "far more probable" than mine simply doesn't stand close scrutiny.

Next, I can't believe we're doing this again, but Daisy did NOT choose to leave, he was pushed, as was Heath Shaw, Shaw came out & said so publicly, Both wanted to be 'pies for life', but were not given that opportunity. Why do I link this to Buckley? Are you serious? I promise you Buckley would have walked if the succession plan was changed or not fulfilled. I cannot conceive of the mind unable to see Bucks as one of 3 people who played the 'succession' drama out. Do you seriously believe that if the club had bowed to common sense and either postponed or discarded the plan in the light of the incredible events of 2010-11 that Bucks would have remained as MM's assistant for another year or two? He came to despise Mick in his time as Assistant coach and learned nothing from him as a result. I wasn't against the plan when it was made, but then I thought Buckley & Mick were friends, however things changed dramatically and we went from perennial runners-up to dominance almost overnight, the brilliance we'd shown in patches from 2006 to 2009 became our regular game, and things were just getting better. The incredibly obvious thing to do in any such occasion is to touch NOTHING. Keep everything as it is and enjoy the ride. It wasn't just that we were winning, it was the way we were doing it, we could come from behind, we could utterly dominate sides, and we were playing with a fluid grace and skill I've never seen from any club, before or since. Every club in the comp feared us, and the AFL was visibly upset, changing the rules and pulling dirty tricks whenever possible to bring us back to the pack.
Retiring players at the end of their careers don't harm a group culture, incoming people can. Changing leadership certainly can, and unceremoniously dumping people who are looked up to as the core of that culture absolutely will. When Buckley said, at the end of last year, that the culture was broken he was 100% correct. What he didn't acknowledge was that he and Ed were the ones responsible.

Next, I don't even understand this! How does my being dubious about our chances of beating Hawthorn help your completely broken premise? This sentence simply makes no logical sense. To suggest that no game plan can work without using the same guys every week is just as illogical. Why do you keep hitting yourself?

And then you finish with an absolute howler! If the guys want a coaching change they should deliberately lose games!!! I'm gonna do you the favour of assuming you were kidding here, either that or you don't understand football, footballers, or football clubs. No AFL team ever goes out there to deliberately fail with a million plus people watching, it just doesn't happen! If you'd play the game you'd know how ridiculous that sounds. Not that I don't believe in tanking, I know AFL clubs have set out to lose games for better draft picks, but that's done at the coaching level & above, never at the player level.

All I am getting here is pedantic attempts to discredit my points, or abusive attempts to do the same. Neither will work, they're just the standard rhetorical devices employed by people who know they have no basis in empirical evidence for their own views. There's simply no reasonable basis for suggesting that the 'succession' plan has been anything but a failure. Sure, it's possible things might turnaround with Buckley at the helm, but that's hardly the point. We were NOT told to give Bucks a few years to make us competitive, we were NOT told to expect a 'rebuild', we were distinctly told to expect a continuation of the happy years. In just three short seasons (2014 will be our shortest in nearly a decade!) we've dropped more than halfway down the ladder. By any measure the succession has failed. Even if we get back into the 8 next year - my own prediction is 10th-12th, the succession plan simply didn't work. The only argument left on the table is whether Buckley's methods have been the cause of our injury woes. If they have then keeping him is idiotic and NOT in the best interest of the club. If Eddie announces a complete change in our training & conditioning methods at the 'big farce.. er, I mean meeting', and the injuries suddenly stop then it becomes virtually impossible NOT to blame Buckley for them. If that happens we'll know that everybody should have listened to the voices of reason and grabbed Bomber while we could, but of course it will be too late by then. Bomber will be taking StKilda or Brisbane to finals while we watch from tenth.

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Piesnchess 

piesnchess


Joined: 09 Jun 2008


PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 3:29 am
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Jesus H Christ, bucks has been hit with more injuries this season, long term ones, than any other club, any club, and before you sackers throw up the poo and piss mob, they have nearly their full list back, as opposed to us with a st valentines day massacre of injured. No $£$%^%%$ coach on gods green earth coulda done better, with what he had on the park, get a $£$%^%%$ grip you friggin bunch of peanut wankers. You all need to chill out bigtime now. at long last.
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September Zeros 



Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:42 am
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35forever wrote:

(PS: @ September Zeroes: Nice one! Sorry about the length, I'll look into supplying an abstract, but I've written scientific papers and half a page IS an abstract! )


What was your paper on top gun? let me guess:

Idiopathic nonsensical rantings in middle aged macrocephalic males?

I do agree with about 1% of what you type ........ Unfortunately it's mostly the punctuation.

Each to their own delusions I guess.

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Bob Sugar 



Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:57 am
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Piesnchess wrote:
Jesus H Christ, bucks has been hit with more injuries this season, long term ones, than any other club, any club, and before you sackers throw up the poo and piss mob, they have nearly their full list back, as opposed to us with a st valentines day massacre of injured. No $£$%^%%$ coach on gods green earth coulda done better, with what he had on the park, get a $£$%^%%$ grip you friggin bunch of peanut wankers. You all need to chill out bigtime now. at long last.


What if the injuries continue next year? That will be 4 years in a row we've had more than our fair share, and it will also be Buckleys 4 year as coach, 1-2 years you could put down to luck, maybe 3 (but not with the sheer volume of injuries we've had this year), but 4? Nah, if it happens again it's time to call a spade a spade.

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The Boy Who Cried Wolf 



Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:11 am
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September Zeros wrote:
35forever wrote:

(PS: @ September Zeroes: Nice one! Sorry about the length, I'll look into supplying an abstract, but I've written scientific papers and half a page IS an abstract! )


What was your paper on top gun? let me guess:

Idiopathic nonsensical rantings in middle aged macrocephalic males?

I do agree with about 1% of what you type ........ Unfortunately it's mostly the punctuation.

Each to their own delusions I guess.


Must admit... he is prone to ranting in a very BIG way, even I, who mostly agrees with the general premise of what he's saying am getting a headache, so it must be a utter migraine for the pro Bucks camp... ha!

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Pies4shaw Leo

pies4shaw


Joined: 08 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:21 am
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It requires a special kind of hubris to imagine that posting the same stuff, over and over again, with no significant factual content or analysis - and at such incredible length - will attract or keep attention, or persuade anyone who doesn't already agree with you.
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collie dog 

RIP Shelby 11-10-13


Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Location: Shelby Christmas dog

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:14 am
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Big T wrote:
collie dog wrote:
Mate Eddie wouldn't know a good coach if he fell over one. Pity Kochie didn't support the Victorian Magpies.


He got mick, mick got a flag. Eddie 1, Collie 0.


Eddie's lost the plot.

Mick was a proven coach. He'd already won 2 flags and took us to two grand finals in a row within three years!

Buckley hasn't coached peanuts.

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BBHS Cancer

bbhs


Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Location: Bellarine

PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:18 am
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Charlie Brown has developed nicely under bucks just the kicking is causing him some issues
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