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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Quote: | | As the etymology of our name 'Liberal' indicates, we have stood for freedom. We have realised that men and women are not just ciphers in a calculation, but are individual human beings whose individual welfare and development must be the main concern of government ... We have learned that the right answer is to set the individual free, to aim at equality of opportunity, to protect the individual against oppression, to create a society in which rights and duties are recognised and made effective. |
- Robert Menzies
The Liberal Party is a party of Classical Liberalism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_liberalism
From Wiki - | Quote: | | In Australia, the term "liberalism" refers to centre-right classical liberalism. Party ideology has therefore been referred to as liberalism, distinct from its meaning in some countries, but also as conservatism, which features strongly in party ideology. The Liberal Party is a supporter of economic liberalism. |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_liberalism
Abbott and even Howard before him have betrayed these ideals, hence the bleeding of young talent from the classical Liberal mould.
http://www.liberal.org.au/our-beliefs |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Good letter.Here's hoping some one pays attention.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Balls, Wokko.
Liberalism has always been a mild, middle-of-the-road centre-right political tradition, owing its philosophical foundation to the great 18th-Century thinker Jon Stuart Mill. Like Mill's work, it came about as a direct response and reply to the rise of socialist thought, particularly that of that other great thinker of the 18th Century, Marx. Both schools of thought began as counter-forces to the oldest of the three great political traditions, so-called conservatism.
Liberalism, the youngest of the great political traditions, was seen as an essential counter-ploy to head off the rise of socialism: at that time, there was massive social revolt against the horrors of conservative rule - think little children down coal mines for 18 hours a day and you get the picture. If Liberalism could not provide a more rich-man-friendly alternative to conservative rule, Mill believed, socialism would rapidly take over.
Other liberals since Mill's time have stuck pretty closely to that basic purpose. Liberalism has always been the kind and gentle face of monied power, or, looked at from the other side, the weak and tepid face of reform.
Here in Australia, we have had many great liberal leaders, among them Menzies, Holt, Gorton, and Fraser. These were men who recognised the need to have some fairness in'' society, and they thought nothing of using government-owned ("socialist") enterprises to achieve national, social, and economic goals. Examples include the very successful commonwealth airlines, the Snowy Mountains Scheme, and a dozen others. They believed absolutely in the necessity of providing proper public services, such as the ABC, for the greater good of all.
The Liberal Party was a marriage between liberal and conservative forces, with the liberals generally being somewhat the stronger wing.
Today's Liberal Party bears very little similarity to the party of Menzies, Gorton, Holt, Fraser, and Hewson. Under Howard, it lurched to the right. Under Abbott, the ferals have taken charge of the asylum and the last three liberals in the Liberal Party are neither sen nor heard.
Pretending that a radical far-right party like the LDP has anything much to do with liberalism is a joke, and a fraud on the electorate.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
You just said that Fraser was a great leader.  
I think I need a Bex and a lie down, he was a cnut.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Tannin wrote: | Balls, Wokko.
Liberalism has always been a mild, middle-of-the-road centre-right political tradition, owing its philosophical foundation to the great 18th-Century thinker Jon Stuart Mill. Like Mill's work, it came about as a direct response and reply to the rise of socialist thought, particularly that of that other great thinker of the 18th Century, Marx. Both schools of thought began as counter-forces to the oldest of the three great political traditions, so-called conservatism.
Liberalism, the youngest of the great political traditions, was seen as an essential counter-ploy to head off the rise of socialism: at that time, there was massive social revolt against the horrors of conservative rule - think little children down coal mines for 18 hours a day and you get the picture. If Liberalism could not provide a more rich-man-friendly alternative to conservative rule, Mill believed, socialism would rapidly take over.
Other liberals since Mill's time have stuck pretty closely to that basic purpose. Liberalism has always been the kind and gentle face of monied power, or, looked at from the other side, the weak and tepid face of reform.
Here in Australia, we have had many great liberal leaders, among them Menzies, Holt, Gorton, and Fraser. These were men who recognised the need to have some fairness in'' society, and they thought nothing of using government-owned ("socialist") enterprises to achieve national, social, and economic goals. Examples include the very successful commonwealth airlines, the Snowy Mountains Scheme, and a dozen others. They believed absolutely in the necessity of providing proper public services, such as the ABC, for the greater good of all.
The Liberal Party was a marriage between liberal and conservative forces, with the liberals generally being somewhat the stronger wing.
Today's Liberal Party bears very little similarity to the party of Menzies, Gorton, Holt, Fraser, and Hewson. Under Howard, it lurched to the right. Under Abbott, the ferals have taken charge of the asylum and the last three liberals in the Liberal Party are neither sen nor heard.
Pretending that a radical far-right party like the LDP has anything much to do with liberalism is a joke, and a fraud on the electorate. |
Always funny when two people are arguing effectively the same thing from two different points of view.
While there is some there I disagree with, the core of your argument is what I'm saying, the Classical Liberal tradition of the Liberal Party has been squeezed out for a mix of Conservative *untery and strange upper-middle class socialism like the paid maternity leave scheme/baby bonus etc. They've become everything that Classical Liberals and libertarians despise, hence the exodus of that group from the party and the rise of the Joe Hockey '**** the poor' conservatives.
The fact is that those of us who see the Liberals as the closest mainstream party to our beliefs are leaving in droves (I always preferenced them highly, now... not so much).
Also the country people feel betrayed by the Nationals, so the coalition is getting very much 'On the Nose' and will need significant renewal before being a force again. Relying on shit labor governments to get in for 1 or 2 terms doens't allow any change in the broader agenda, a government needs a decade or so to implement a vision (if they have one). |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| Wokko wrote: | | the core of your argument is what I'm saying, the Classical Liberal tradition of the Liberal Party has been squeezed out for a mix of Conservative *untery and strange upper-middle class socialism like the paid maternity leave scheme/baby bonus etc. They've become everything that Classical Liberals and libertarians despise, hence the exodus of that group from the party and the rise of the Joe Hockey '**** the poor' conservatives. |
Yep, we are on the same page then. I agree fully with your last post, also as regards the Nationals. (Why do they even exist? It's not as if they ever, ever vote against the Liberals, and when they argue in the cabinet room for something they want and the Libs don't (usually some daft pork barrel, but once in a while something valid), nine times out of ten they get told to shut up and deal with it.)
But if the Coalition is in a terrible state as you say (and I agree with you), how come we have 5 out of 8 governments, including three of the most important four, in Coalition hands? I think you have to ask the Labor Party that one.
(Hint: where the Liberals have betrayed their heritage and now stand for something completely alien both to their own tradition and to Australians at large, Labor has forgotten it ever had a tradition and doesn't seem to stand for anything in particular.
But these dreadful Tea Party Liberal governments in Canberra and Brisbane are actually doing the Labor movement a huge favour: little by little, Labor is starting to remember what it's there for. Hell, judging by his recent statements, you could be forgiven for thinking that Shorten actually seems to get it. I'm a little surprised by that.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| stui magpie wrote: | ^
You just said that Fraser was a great leader.
I think I need a Bex and a lie down, he was a cnut. |
I thought that at the time too. I hated him. But after all he was a Liberal and all Liberals are cnuts, it's part of the job description. Also, he went on to become a much greater man after his term was over than he had ever been as PM.
In any case, I wasn't talking about "great" as in "did great stuff for which we should all be grateful" (though Mal did a couple of particularly good things while he was PM, amongst a lot of other things I don't approve of), no, I was using "great" in the sense of "great from the point of view of someone inside the liberal tradition". In the same sense I'd say Atilla the Hun was a "great" leader; not 'coz I think he was good for the world or kind to little children, he was "great" 'coz the Huns had a lovely time conquering half the rest of the world under his rule.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Where exactly is that? |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Next for the electorate to concede the Glibs are a rotten-to-the-core, extremist party in the pockets of corrupt, self-serving fanatics who are willing to drive the nation into the dirt for self glorification.
Abbott is just one among many extremists Howard coddled.
| SMH wrote: | Tony Abbott is the problem with the federal government: poll
Today's poll starkly identifies the people's problem with the Abbott government. It's Tony Abbott.
In opposition, Abbott liked to say that Julia Gillard was the most incompetent and untrustworthy prime minister in Australia's history.
The voters now have decided that they have found one that's more incompetent and just as untrustworthy.
"Only half of people polled said that Abbott is competent," says the Fairfax pollster, Jess Elgood of Ipsos.
"That's lower than for any prime minister we have figures for," a data set starting with Paul Keating in 1995.
Compared to Abbott's 50 per cent, the comparable figure for Gillard four months before she was deposed was 53 per cent.
The competence rating for Kevin Rudd two months before losing last year's election was 65 per cent.
Remarkably, even Bill Shorten, with 58 per cent, has a higher competence rating than Abbott.
As Opposition Leader, Shorten doesn't actually administer anything.
Abbott last week berated Shorten for his untrustworthiness, the man who stabbed two of his leaders, Rudd and then Gillard, in the back.
Yet today's poll shows that the electorate considers Abbott to be even less trustworthy.
Neither man is regarded as someone most Australians would trust to feed their dog, but Shorten's 44 per cent rating on trust handily beats Abbott's 36.
Abbott's low standing is unimpressive enough, but the fact that he's dwarfed by Shorten's stunted status is evidence of a serious problem.
The poll finding on the overall political contest shows only a very marginal deterioration in support for the Coalition over the past month.
The government is behind, and it slipped further behind by only 2 percentage points in the last month on the primary vote, and 1 point on the two-party preferred vote.
These movements are within the poll's margin of error.
But the prime minister's personal numbers fell sharply.
"His reputation has clearly taken a battering from the way the Coalition is seen to renege on its promises," says Elgood.
Shorten's net approval rating today is 5 per cent, not outstanding until you compare it to Abbott's negative 19.
Shorten's lead lengthened by 14 percentage points in a single month, a sharp movement in so brief a span.
What did Shorten do to win more approval? Only oppose Abbott.
As Shorten said last week: "2014 has been defined by the force of our resistance."
Abbott is making Shorten popular.
With the government's support falling only marginally but Abbott's precipitously, the people seem to be making a personal point.
This is about you, prime minister.
Abbott, seen by the people to be incompetent and untrustworthy, is a liability for his government and an asset for the Labor party.
While most of Australia relaxes over the Christmas break, the prime minister will spend the time in serious self-reflection. If he's in any way competent. |
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/tony-abbott-is-the-problem-with-the-federal-government-poll-20141207-12247a.html
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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You can't call someone a Liar and then Lie. Australians will reject you. The LNP are in a no win situation. Removing Big Ears will be seen to be even more hypocrisy.  |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Wonder if he's regretting going so hard on the "carbon tax lie" thing now? Not much fun when the boot's on the other foot, is it.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Me either. |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Wonder if he's regretting going so hard on the "carbon tax lie" thing now? Not much fun when the boot's on the other foot, is it. |
It's come back to haunt him. Trashing two revenue streams whilst screaming the countries broke has to hurt. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Tony stepping aside for some kind of manufactured 'family reasons' would have to be on the cards soon. Any transition can't look like a coup or the Gillard comparisons just continue to haunt the next PM (Who I assume will be Bishop). |
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