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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Well we need ASAdA now
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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WOWEE this has turned into a thread about us being a chance to how John Lennon was a wife beater (which I don't dispute by the way)
Nicks really is crazy at times! 
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35forever
"I feel sick - dada dada dada da"
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Physical=Sunshine Coast -- Mental=Vic Park
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Don't revive the Lennon stuff Jezza, it could go on forever!
I have a feeling that the '"perceptive fellow"' and the 'butterflies & lollipops' teams are made up of people with a fundamental difference in how they are affected by Collingwood's performances. The 'SS's' being people who are affected to a greater, almost absurd degree. Not that the S&L's don't care, but a poor match, or a poor season doesn't affect their 'real' life much. For myself, I can hardly watch our games even when we're winning. The stress it causes most weeks makes it easier just to record the games & watch them later; the same evening if we win, and during the week sometime if we don't. I don't for a second suggest that this is a good way to be, I'd give a lot to be one of those who can watch us play without much stress, but I'm not, and when we lose I want to know why!
Anyway, it's just a theory, and it isn't based on all that much research. it just occurs to me that it requires more pain to look honestly at the club and see it's weaknesses. A cursory glance would see our current form as a bit of a bad patch which can be easily turned around, while a deeper analysis recognises that we have fundamental, systemic problems that had their genesis in the disastrous 'succession' and won't be repaired while Buckley and Eddie are at the helm. The same cursory glance must also conclude that we just don't have the best side as there can be no other explanation, at least none has been offered. (and no, me being insane does not qualify as an explanation).
It's easy to say we aren't good enough, but anyone who watched us against Carlton the first time, or Sydney in round 2, or Essendon in the second quarter, or against North, or Richmond would be hard pressed to back it up. What we have appeared unable to do all season is to play four quarters. The only game I remember us doing that in so far was the West Coast game, even though it was a low margin, West Coast played as well as they have all year and couldn't break down the walls of our defense. To say we're not all that great is to ignore our 3 best in Pendles, Beamer & Sidey, and to forget that Swanny was better than even them for several years before this.
When I say that we have the best list I mean if all sides had full lists of guys playing at their best, and god knows between injury & form slumps we've been a long way from that in 2014.
That said, we were 4th a mere two months ago. up until the bye we'd shown signs of the Collingwood of 2010-2012. We were able to beat the likes of North and Essendon with just a couple of good quarters, and looked to be moving in the right direction.
So what happened? The losses to Adelaide, then Footscray were nightmarish upsets which just shouldn't have happened, neither side had beaten us in years. So what happened? The S&Ls would have us believe that our completely coincidental 3rd straight year of injuries played a part, and undoubtedly those injuries, whatever their cause, didn't help. But there has obviously been more at work here than injuries. Some of our best players are underperforming hugely.
No one can doubt that Dane Swan is among the leagues best, the guy has been in the top few on Brownlow night for years. Do people believe that his awful 2014 is a result of simply losing his ability or fitness? Obviously not, it simply doesn't happen that suddenly, besides, he has put in a couple of BOG performances this season where his spectacular best was shown to still exist, but for the last few years Swanny posting 30 plus posessions was a weekly event. After his appeal to supporters at the Coleman farce last year I had a feeling 2014 wouldn't be his best, and said so. All his mates have retired or been dumped and he clearly isn't a Buckley favourite. Our great spearhead Travis Cloke is similarly struggling to find his best, as are newcomers like Jesse White and 'Dasher' Young. Even our great find of 2013 Brodie Grundy has found himself bouncing between the ones & twos after taking all before him in his first dozen games, and our much heralded top 20 picks are still yet to play a game, the only top 20 draftees from 2013 to make their debut. Other guys I thought would really take the next step this year, such as Seedy, Marley, and Kennedy haven't set the world on fire despite showing patches of brilliance.
There is no doubt that our list is full of great players, and that list, when fit, can overcome any opposition. It isn't fit however, and too many of our best are playing well below their ability. The only explanation for this is mental problems, such as lack of confidence, lack of cohesiveness, and lack of mental toughness. These vital aspects of the game are supposed to be instilled in players by the coaches, and our coaches are failing at this miserably. No one is offering an alternative. If anyone has an alternative I'd love to hear it, but the idea that we're "just not good enough" is demonstrably ridiculous. And even if we're only the second or third best, that doesn't explain being out of the 8 where we might well finish for the first time since the dark days of 2004-5.
So I put it to you, unless you believe we have the ninth or tenth best list, which is just nutty, why are we performing so poorly? And more importantly, how can it be turned around?
_________________
"If at first you dont succeed...
... oh who cares, we did it!!!!!"
-me, 2010
"The pies are going to the big dance!"-P.Daicos 2010
Visit My Website! |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| 35forever wrote: | Don't revive the Lennon stuff Jezza, it could go on forever!
I have a feeling that the '"perceptive fellow"' and the 'butterflies & lollipops' teams are made up of people with a fundamental difference in how they are affected by Collingwood's performances. The 'SS's' being people who are affected to a greater, almost absurd degree. Not that the S&L's don't care, but a poor match, or a poor season doesn't affect their 'real' life much. For myself, I can hardly watch our games even when we're winning. The stress it causes most weeks makes it easier just to record the games & watch them later; the same evening if we win, and during the week sometime if we don't. I don't for a second suggest that this is a good way to be, I'd give a lot to be one of those who can watch us play without much stress, but I'm not, and when we lose I want to know why!
Anyway, it's just a theory, and it isn't based on all that much research. it just occurs to me that it requires more pain to look honestly at the club and see it's weaknesses. A cursory glance would see our current form as a bit of a bad patch which can be easily turned around, while a deeper analysis recognises that we have fundamental, systemic problems that had their genesis in the disastrous 'succession' and won't be repaired while Buckley and Eddie are at the helm. The same cursory glance must also conclude that we just don't have the best side as there can be no other explanation, at least none has been offered. (and no, me being insane does not qualify as an explanation).
It's easy to say we aren't good enough, but anyone who watched us against Carlton the first time, or Sydney in round 2, or Essendon in the second quarter, or against North, or Richmond would be hard pressed to back it up. What we have appeared unable to do all season is to play four quarters. The only game I remember us doing that in so far was the West Coast game, even though it was a low margin, West Coast played as well as they have all year and couldn't break down the walls of our defense. To say we're not all that great is to ignore our 3 best in Pendles, Beamer & Sidey, and to forget that Swanny was better than even them for several years before this.
When I say that we have the best list I mean if all sides had full lists of guys playing at their best, and god knows between injury & form slumps we've been a long way from that in 2014.
That said, we were 4th a mere two months ago. up until the bye we'd shown signs of the Collingwood of 2010-2012. We were able to beat the likes of North and Essendon with just a couple of good quarters, and looked to be moving in the right direction.
So what happened? The losses to Adelaide, then Footscray were nightmarish upsets which just shouldn't have happened, neither side had beaten us in years. So what happened? The S&Ls would have us believe that our completely coincidental 3rd straight year of injuries played a part, and undoubtedly those injuries, whatever their cause, didn't help. But there has obviously been more at work here than injuries. Some of our best players are underperforming hugely.
No one can doubt that Dane Swan is among the leagues best, the guy has been in the top few on Brownlow night for years. Do people believe that his awful 2014 is a result of simply losing his ability or fitness? Obviously not, it simply doesn't happen that suddenly, besides, he has put in a couple of BOG performances this season where his spectacular best was shown to still exist, but for the last few years Swanny posting 30 plus posessions was a weekly event. After his appeal to supporters at the Coleman farce last year I had a feeling 2014 wouldn't be his best, and said so. All his mates have retired or been dumped and he clearly isn't a Buckley favourite. Our great spearhead Travis Cloke is similarly struggling to find his best, as are newcomers like Jesse White and 'Dasher' Young. Even our great find of 2013 Brodie Grundy has found himself bouncing between the ones & twos after taking all before him in his first dozen games, and our much heralded top 20 picks are still yet to play a game, the only top 20 draftees from 2013 to make their debut. Other guys I thought would really take the next step this year, such as Seedy, Marley, and Kennedy haven't set the world on fire despite showing patches of brilliance.
There is no doubt that our list is full of great players, and that list, when fit, can overcome any opposition. It isn't fit however, and too many of our best are playing well below their ability. The only explanation for this is mental problems, such as lack of confidence, lack of cohesiveness, and lack of mental toughness. These vital aspects of the game are supposed to be instilled in players by the coaches, and our coaches are failing at this miserably. No one is offering an alternative. If anyone has an alternative I'd love to hear it, but the idea that we're "just not good enough" is demonstrably ridiculous. And even if we're only the second or third best, that doesn't explain being out of the 8 where we might well finish for the first time since the dark days of 2004-5.
So I put it to you, unless you believe we have the ninth or tenth best list, which is just nutty, why are we performing so poorly? And more importantly, how can it be turned around? |
There's quite a simple explanation actually. Relying on so many inexperienced players has become a bridge too far. The longer the season has gone, the harder it's become for these young players, as their bodies have struggled to cope with the growing mental and physical fatigue and battering. We are currently playing with one of the youngest lists in the competition. Add to that, the loss of the player formerly known as Swanny and our reliance on novice ruckmen, it's no wonder we're struggling to make the eight. If we make the finals, I'll be nominating Bucks as coach of the year! |
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piedys
Heeeeeeere's Dyso!!!
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Resident Forum Psychopath since 2003
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Well i guess WCE just did us a favour beating the Cows, who obviously spent all their petrol tickets playing THEIR grand final against us last sunday. My bet is the ball slaughterers will piss it against the wall for a 2nd successive week, against Powder Puffs.
But prove me wrong. Be my guest.
Dyso
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M I L L A N E 4 2 forever |
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35forever
"I feel sick - dada dada dada da"
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Physical=Sunshine Coast -- Mental=Vic Park
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Yes, RudeBoy, that IS simple explanation!
Another would be that we've been kicking lower scores than our opponents and THAT’S why we've been losing. Simple & true, but not quite helpful in explaining our tumble.
But it's a start. The next step would be to ask WHY we've been reliant on such young players. Injuries is the word that springs to mind, but surely we don't still believe that our third straight year of long injury lists is just coincidence? If so how many before you believe there is a systemic problem? 5? 7? How about - just for argument's sake - we assume it isn't coincidence?
And there's more to it than just injury. Why have certain players dropped their ratings dramatically? Swan is the obvious, & most mystifying, example, but there are others such as Ball, White, and what happened to Lynch? and why have others, notably Sidey & Beamer, just kept improving? Also, regardless of age, we have lost the ability we once had to win, even when below our best, even when we didn't deserve it, and especially when scores were close, we just found a way to get over the line. Where did that go?
Yes, it's true, I believe the idiotic enforcing of the 'succession' is the primary reason we are in the crapper, everything I said would happen as a result, has happened, and more. Does this make me feel clever? Vindicated? No, it doesn't, it makes me feel sick & I would much rather look for a solution to our woes than thumb my nose and say "I told you so!"
So what IS the answer? The most likely outcome is that we'll do nothing except move players in & out of the senior side, call it a rebuild, and endure a few more years of mediocrity. Maybe the 'window' will open again in 2018 or thereabouts?
Is that good enough for you?
If you're one of those who can just dip in & out of being a fanatic magpie, then it probably is, but for those who bleed Black & White, who hang on the result of every match, who freeze their butts of on Sunday evenings at the 'G, and who can name every magpie from Fasolo to Frost without stopping to think then it probably isn't. You probably don't want to re-live 2004-2005 despite the tasty draft picks.
So what is the answer? Dump Buckley? Change training methods? Spill the board? Put Swanny on 'roids? I don't know quite frankly, but I'd definitely like to discuss it, and discuss it openly without personal attacks and factional divisions.
Pretend you've been asked to offer your thoughts on repairing North or Richmond. Be objective, and spill...
_________________
"If at first you dont succeed...
... oh who cares, we did it!!!!!"
-me, 2010
"The pies are going to the big dance!"-P.Daicos 2010
Visit My Website! |
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yin-YANG
Joined: 03 Oct 2011
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Forget about Bitchmond and the roadkills 35 forever...
Pies have lost 5 a graders this year - Daisy, Shaw, Swan, Reid and Ball.
Daisy has proven he was not worth big bucks, Shaw swap was a good move for the future Reid injury has exposed WHite and Swan and Ball have not delivered in 2014...
Bux has had to play the kids and even though we are not a top 4 contender the kids look good. The future is bright, so you efforts will be rewarded on those cold nights at the G!
Keep the faith - we are on the right track and Bux has made the most of a very young side.
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Love us or Hate us... we are Collingwood - you can't ignore the Mighty Magpies!!! |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| 35forever wrote: | Yes, RudeBoy, that IS simple explanation!
Another would be that we've been kicking lower scores than our opponents and THAT’S why we've been losing. Simple & true, but not quite helpful in explaining our tumble.
But it's a start. The next step would be to ask WHY we've been reliant on such young players. Injuries is the word that springs to mind, but surely we don't still believe that our third straight year of long injury lists is just coincidence? If so how many before you believe there is a systemic problem? 5? 7? How about - just for argument's sake - we assume it isn't coincidence?
And there's more to it than just injury. Why have certain players dropped their ratings dramatically? Swan is the obvious, & most mystifying, example, but there are others such as Ball, White, and what happened to Lynch? and why have others, notably Sidey & Beamer, just kept improving? Also, regardless of age, we have lost the ability we once had to win, even when below our best, even when we didn't deserve it, and especially when scores were close, we just found a way to get over the line. Where did that go?
Yes, it's true, I believe the idiotic enforcing of the 'succession' is the primary reason we are in the crapper, everything I said would happen as a result, has happened, and more. Does this make me feel clever? Vindicated? No, it doesn't, it makes me feel sick & I would much rather look for a solution to our woes than thumb my nose and say "I told you so!"
So what IS the answer? The most likely outcome is that we'll do nothing except move players in & out of the senior side, call it a rebuild, and endure a few more years of mediocrity. Maybe the 'window' will open again in 2018 or thereabouts?
Is that good enough for you?
If you're one of those who can just dip in & out of being a fanatic magpie, then it probably is, but for those who bleed Black & White, who hang on the result of every match, who freeze their butts of on Sunday evenings at the 'G, and who can name every magpie from Fasolo to Frost without stopping to think then it probably isn't. You probably don't want to re-live 2004-2005 despite the tasty draft picks.
So what is the answer? Dump Buckley? Change training methods? Spill the board? Put Swanny on 'roids? I don't know quite frankly, but I'd definitely like to discuss it, and discuss it openly without personal attacks and factional divisions.
Pretend you've been asked to offer your thoughts on repairing North or Richmond. Be objective, and spill... |
Have I missed something here?
I offered my explanation of our up and down form this season. Why the angst and hostility? How have I possibly attacked you personally. All I've done is offered my opinion. Maybe you've confused my post with someone elses?.  |
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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35forever, to categorise and try to rationalise the characterisitic of a ""perceptive fellow"" or "s&l" is just churlish and unnecessary.
we may all be looking at the same thing but we all see something different. we all view life through a different lens. in supporting your club, take the bad with the good. not much in life really turns out how we want it to. remember that the guys that pull on the jumper for this great club do not intentionally go out to sabotage your match viewing experience. it's a shame you are a nervous wreck watching each game. it's wasted energy. enjoy the ride. we're all a long time dead.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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FMD how did John Lennon end up in a discussion about Collingwood?
Let it be, let it be people.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| RudeBoy wrote: |
There's quite a simple explanation actually. Relying on so many inexperienced players has become a bridge too far. The longer the season has gone, the harder it's become for these young players, as their bodies have struggled to cope with the growing mental and physical fatigue and battering. We are currently playing with one of the youngest lists in the competition. Add to that, the loss of the player formerly known as Swanny and our reliance on novice ruckmen, it's no wonder we're struggling to make the eight. If we make the finals, I'll be nominating Bucks as coach of the year! |
Says it all
So many didn't turn up last night, time slot, too cold, making the the AFL realize they can't treat US this way, yada yada yada. Bullshit,
Well it was their loss. Cos I'm telling you, to those who said "this is our grand final" you were right. And it was bloody magnificent. And there may have only been 31,000 of us (the extras were port fans) but my god we got our just desserts! Ugly? Sure was! That's what guts beating experience looks like. Every time. Good honest effort. Exactly what our retiring great Captain deserved for a send off. Captain courageous was sent off in fine style, the style himself played. The atmosphere after the game, we sang and sang and sang. It was bloody beautiful.
And we were home by 7.59!
Rude boy summed it up perfectly.
We got a look at our future last night, and I'm loving it.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| think positive wrote: | | RudeBoy wrote: |
There's quite a simple explanation actually. Relying on so many inexperienced players has become a bridge too far. The longer the season has gone, the harder it's become for these young players, as their bodies have struggled to cope with the growing mental and physical fatigue and battering. We are currently playing with one of the youngest lists in the competition. Add to that, the loss of the player formerly known as Swanny and our reliance on novice ruckmen, it's no wonder we're struggling to make the eight. If we make the finals, I'll be nominating Bucks as coach of the year! |
Says it all
So many didn't turn up last night, time slot, too cold, making the the AFL realize they can't treat US this way, yada yada yada. Bullshit,
Well it was their loss. Cos I'm telling you, to those who said "this is our grand final" you were right. And it was bloody magnificent. And there may have only been 31,000 of us (the extras were port fans) but my god we got our just desserts! Ugly? Sure was! That's what guts beating experience looks like. Every time. Good honest effort. Exactly what our retiring great Captain deserved for a send off. Captain courageous was sent off in fine style, the style himself played. The atmosphere after the game, we sang and sang and sang. It was bloody beautiful.
And we were home by 7.59!
Rude boy summed it up perfectly.
We got a look at our future last night, and I'm loving it. |
Would have had to leave at half time to achieve that! |
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35forever
"I feel sick - dada dada dada da"
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Physical=Sunshine Coast -- Mental=Vic Park
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Firstly, @Rudeboy. Mate, I've re-read my post & I don't see angst and hostility directed at you, certainly it wasn't my intention. I did take the pi$$ out of your opening assertion, but it was tounge in cheek & certainly not written in anger. If you mean the 4th paragraph, that was directed at everyone here, and hardly insulting. Either way, I didn't intend to insult you personally and I do apologise if it caused you a moment's stress. I think I'm generally pretty clear if I'm insulting someone, but it's always sarcastic and reserved for those who depart from the point to indulge in personal attacks myself or others. I find attacking someone verbally on the internet to be the height of cowardice, you didn't do that to me and I apologise again if you believe I did it to you.
Now back to footy. It's really easy to get excited about one game, I certainly did, and it was great to see us play as I know we can. For perhaps the second time n 2014 we went at it for the 4 quarters. We were a bit sloppy at times, and let Port in more often than we deserved, but the performances of Sidey, Armstrong, and 'Sweeper' were particularly good to see, especially after waiting so long to see what the latter two can do. Their stats weren't particularly vast but theres more to a game than stats. Their work under pressure was excellent with Armstrong turning in 100% efficiency, and Broomhead's shot to regain us the lead showed maturity & leadership. It was also nice to see Clokey taking the big marks and I thought Adams took a step forward. White didn't have a big game, but I thought he showed a desperation we haven't seen in a while. For several reasons it would be very easy to see this as a season-defining win, and there's no doubt we can take a lot from it, but this is Collingwood people. It's just as likely we'll fall over right when there's the most to gain, as we did against Footscray when a lock on 4th spot was on offer. It's amazing that were only three games out of top spot, but we're only in the 8 by the skin of our teeth, and we seem unable to kick big scores. This is not going to help especially given the soft draws the sides around us enjoy in the run home. Of course if we do hang on to 8th it's exactly the same as finishing 5th. in fact unless it's Port who get 5th spot it's absolutely identical, although there's probably a mental challenge in attacking the flag from 8th as opposed to 5th.
Last year I would've gotten all excited about our chances of going deep into September after a win like that, but I'm not falling for it this year, especially when there's so much likelihood that we could end up missing the finals altogether.
But still the question remains:
Why did we fall from 4th to 9th so quickly? Why have we endured a third straight season of long injury lists? Why have several players, particularly Swanny & Grundy, had such poor seasons? Yes, we're playing a lot of kids, but the injuries and form slumps are the reason for that, not some brave policy of playing the young guys.
Do you not want answers to these questions? I certainly do, and again, if theres an answer that DOESN'T include poor coaching and management, I'd genuinely like to hear it.
_________________
"If at first you dont succeed...
... oh who cares, we did it!!!!!"
-me, 2010
"The pies are going to the big dance!"-P.Daicos 2010
Visit My Website! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| If I had answers to these questions what would I do with it? |
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RudeBoy
Joined: 28 Nov 2005
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| 35forever wrote: | Firstly, @Rudeboy. Mate, I've re-read my post & I don't see angst and hostility directed at you, certainly it wasn't my intention. I did take the pi$$ out of your opening assertion, but it was tounge in cheek & certainly not written in anger. If you mean the 4th paragraph, that was directed at everyone here, and hardly insulting. Either way, I didn't intend to insult you personally and I do apologise if it caused you a moment's stress. I think I'm generally pretty clear if I'm insulting someone, but it's always sarcastic and reserved for those who depart from the point to indulge in personal attacks myself or others. I find attacking someone verbally on the internet to be the height of cowardice, you didn't do that to me and I apologise again if you believe I did it to you.
Now back to footy. It's really easy to get excited about one game, I certainly did, and it was great to see us play as I know we can. For perhaps the second time n 2014 we went at it for the 4 quarters. We were a bit sloppy at times, and let Port in more often than we deserved, but the performances of Sidey, Armstrong, and 'Sweeper' were particularly good to see, especially after waiting so long to see what the latter two can do. Their stats weren't particularly vast but theres more to a game than stats. Their work under pressure was excellent with Armstrong turning in 100% efficiency, and Broomhead's shot to regain us the lead showed maturity & leadership. It was also nice to see Clokey taking the big marks and I thought Adams took a step forward. White didn't have a big game, but I thought he showed a desperation we haven't seen in a while. For several reasons it would be very easy to see this as a season-defining win, and there's no doubt we can take a lot from it, but this is Collingwood people. It's just as likely we'll fall over right when there's the most to gain, as we did against Footscray when a lock on 4th spot was on offer. It's amazing that were only three games out of top spot, but we're only in the 8 by the skin of our teeth, and we seem unable to kick big scores. This is not going to help especially given the soft draws the sides around us enjoy in the run home. Of course if we do hang on to 8th it's exactly the same as finishing 5th. in fact unless it's Port who get 5th spot it's absolutely identical, although there's probably a mental challenge in attacking the flag from 8th as opposed to 5th.
Last year I would've gotten all excited about our chances of going deep into September after a win like that, but I'm not falling for it this year, especially when there's so much likelihood that we could end up missing the finals altogether.
But still the question remains:
Why did we fall from 4th to 9th so quickly? Why have we endured a third straight season of long injury lists? Why have several players, particularly Swanny & Grundy, had such poor seasons? Yes, we're playing a lot of kids, but the injuries and form slumps are the reason for that, not some brave policy of playing the young guys.
Do you not want answers to these questions? I certainly do, and again, if theres an answer that DOESN'T include poor coaching and management, I'd genuinely like to hear it. |
No worries 35forever.
Without repeating myself I really think we have struggled without the Swanny of old all season. Look at what happened to the Gold Coast without Ablett. Swanny's ability to break through traffic and create opportunities has been lacking all year. No-one on our list can fulfil that role....yet. We'll just have to agree to disagree on list management and coaching, as I think Bucks has done a fantastic job blooding so many young players this year. I honestly think he has set us up for great success over the next 2-3 seasons. Only time will tell which one of us is on the money. |
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