MH17
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| 3.14159 wrote: | I was on plane with a soccer player a few a while ago.
The drinks trolley ran over his toe and sending scolding hot coffee all over me.
At which point he threw himself on the floor clutching his shin and screaming about the pain and injury and the bite marks on his shoulder and demanding a penalty.
they bumped him to first class.
They asked me if I wanted a refill and a some wet wipes to sit on?
errr, hang on a minute, now I think about it,he wasn't a soccer player, he was a solicitor... |
^ One of the truly great posts.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| Morrigu wrote: | Virgin Atlantic had a packed Heathrow-bound airliner flying through Ukrainian airspace when MH17 was brought down.
Flight VS301 from Delhi to London was over the city of Zaporizhia, in Eastern Ukraine, and just 140 miles from where the missile was launched.
It was one of nearly 300 planes in Ukrainian airspace, of which 55 - including six flights from Heathrow Airport - were in the immediate ‘war zone.’
It was also one of three Virgin Atlantic airliners plotted flying over the Ukraine in the seven days leading up to the attack by flight tracking aviation website Flightradar24.com.
A Singapore Airlines passenger plane was flying just 15 miles away when flight MH17 was shot down.
Other airlines which used the same airspace over Donetsk as the MH17 plane on the same day include Jet Airways, Thai Airways, Pakistan International Airlines, Qatar Airways, Etihad; Emirates, and Austrian Airlines.
There was also another Malaysian Airlines flight travelling from Heathrow to Kuala Lumpur
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2697098/THREE-HUNDRED-planes-scheduled-fly-Ukraine-day-MH17-tragedy.html#ixzz38CPL6HDN |
^ Quality posting. Thankyou.
| Morrigu wrote: |
Who the hell would even consider flying Aeroflot even if they were paying you  |
Well I would. but only if they still have an Ilyushin Il-62, 'coz I'd love to fly on one of these very handsome classic 1960s airliners just once before I die. Ditto a Shorts Empire Boat and a Comet IV. To hell with the risk!
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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Talk of sanctions to bring the maniac Russian bear to its quivering knees! I had to chuckle when I read Tannin's sabre rattling blather.
One thing about Russian gas. A lot of European capital make an awful lot of marks, francs, kroner, euros etc out of it. Do you think they are going to happily give that up? Or the jobs in Northern Europe that will be lost over the length of time such sanctions would take to work if they do at all? European capital is not going give up its profits to save "poor little Ukraine".
I do note also that Russia has just opened a gas pipeline to China. That is potentially as big a market as Western Europe almost. Do you think the Chinese will be wiling to close that pipeline? The answer of course is that they won't.
Given that your sanctions will ultimately be ineffective or more correctly, unlikely to be ever enacted, what then to bring the maniac bear to its knees? Tanks?
Finally say sanctions do work, what will be done to stop Ukrainian Black squads and the Ukrainian far right continuing their agenda of ethnic purification in the Russian speaking areas of the Ukraine?
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"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad". |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| rocketronnie wrote: | | Talk of sanctions to bring the maniac Russian bear to its quivering knees! I had to chuckle when I read Tannin's sabre rattling blather. |
Bullshit.
You haven't read it at all - that is made very clear by your daft pretence that calling for economic sanctions is "sabre rattling". Sabre rattling is where you threaten for military action, send in the B-52s, or call out the Army reserves.
If you could be bothered learning to read, you'd discover that I - like most other sensible posters here - am calling for measured, practical (and 100% peaceful) economic sanctions to bring Putin to his senses and restore as much peace to the region as can be hoped for. Pretending calls for non-violent, peaceful economic pressure are "sabre rattling" is beyond stupid.
(I don't mind being criticised for what I am and what I say, that's all part of the rough and tumble, but it gets up my nose when posters here are too stupid or too lazy to bother reading what I actually wrote and just tee off on some complete fantasy bullshit that they made up out of their own heads. What RR wrote just now has got nothing whatever to do with me. He apparently has a need to yell at some military fantasist. There isn't one here, in this thread, at least no-one that I've noticed, so he made one up. That's fine, RR, make up whatever fantasy turns you on. Just leave me out of it.)
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Sanctions, the act of war when you're too shit scared of the consequences of war. Lets not mince words here, sanctions are effectively a blockade, and blockading serves to hurt the civilian population and has little to no impact without a wider military action. in Iran the sanctions have led to expensive basic goods and airliner crashes. I don't know what effect you think trade sanctions will have but as with Napoleon's trade sanctions against the UK they'll hurt those who trade with Russia more than they'll hurt Russia itself. The Billionaire oligarchs will go about their business as if nothing has happened, the mafia and black market will flourish and just how do you stop trade goods flowing across the largest land border in the world?
As for not buying Russian gas, while you deny capital to the Russian state you're killing people once the European winter hits. High gas and power prices have killed people in the UK winter, what do you think it would do across Europe. It doesn't matter if there are other options to source gas, simple supply and demand would lead to skyrocketting prices in Europe while Russia continues selling elsewhere. Poorly thought out teeth gnashing.
Russia has armed a group of rebels it is sympathetic to, and those rebels stupidly blew up a plane. Considering the Western powers wanted to fund (probably do fund) and arm Islamists in Syria because they don't like Assad and currently spend billions supporting Israel's military so it can kill women and children in Palestine, and have armed and supported groups that did the exact same $£$%^%%$ thing, I don't believe their 'outrage' towards Russia one iota.
Last edited by Wokko on Wed Jul 23, 2014 7:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Stop the rutile, now. Bring them all to their knees. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Stop the rutile, now. Bring them all to their knees. |
Ah, yes the futile ban ! John Clarke (aka Fred Dagg at that point) used to be very funny on that. You have to be un certain age....
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Quite right - on reflection, I realise that the Great Rutile Ban dates from 1980. Of course, for someone who still thinks of "Everybody's in Showbiz" as a "late" Kinks album, Fraser's great success in stopping the rise of the predecessors of the Taliban in Afghanistan all those years ago is still very fresh in the memory. Perhaps Australia's finest moment of international diplomacy. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Quite right - on reflection, I realise that the Great Rutile Ban dates from 1980. Of course, for someone who still thinks of "Everybody's in Showbiz" as a "late" Kinks album, Fraser's great success in stopping the rise of the predecessors of the Taliban in Afghanistan all those years ago is still very fresh in the memory. Perhaps Australia's finest moment of international diplomacy. |
About the same time, Clarke had a very funny line about Jimmy Carter bringing the Iranians to their knees by dropping helicopters on their deserts...
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | | PTID is violently in favour of inaction. |
No! Wrong! I'm in favour of doing due diligence and knowing what's going on —the actors, the power trail, money trail, the different options and their implications, etc.—before pontificating on the matter. This type of thing could very easily snowball out of control because the forces involved are complex and unpredictable, so you owe it to the people you're trying to persuade to be diligent. |
I think you're demanding technicalities here ... Let's assume that Western governments are not completely reckless and will calculate the likely effect of sanctions ; they have, after all, large civil service organisations to do that. And Nick's, for all its fine minds, lacks their resources.
Would you in principle support targeted sanctions -financial, energy, whatever - that were designed to weaken Putin's grip on power by undermining his economic base, and making his annexation of Crimea and expansionism in Western Ukraine seem more costly than it is worth ? Because you can ask for all the spreadsheets and political analysts' reports in the world, but in the end, this will be a judgement based on principles, not on the pretense of knowledge that comes from a "diligence" study. I think the answer "no, Ukraine is not worth the risk that biting sanctions may invoke" is a defensible one, by the way - though I happen to disagree with that view, on balance.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| Isn't this incident just a war crime. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| 1061 wrote: | | Isn't this incident just a war crime. |
No, Vald Putin was personally piloting the missile from his hidden base. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | | PTID is violently in favour of inaction. |
No! Wrong! I'm in favour of doing due diligence and knowing what's going on —the actors, the power trail, money trail, the different options and their implications, etc.—before pontificating on the matter. This type of thing could very easily snowball out of control because the forces involved are complex and unpredictable, so you owe it to the people you're trying to persuade to be diligent. |
I think you're demanding technicalities here ... Let's assume that Western governments are not completely reckless and will calculate the likely effect of sanctions ; they have, after all, large civil service organisations to do that. And Nick's, for all its fine minds, lacks their resources.
Would you in principle support targeted sanctions -financial, energy, whatever - that were designed to weaken Putin's grip on power by undermining his economic base, and making his annexation of Crimea and expansionism in Western Ukraine seem more costly than it is worth ? Because you can ask for all the spreadsheets and political analysts' reports in the world, but in the end, this will be a judgement based on principles, not on the pretense of knowledge that comes from a "diligence" study. I think the answer "no, Ukraine is not worth the risk that biting sanctions may invoke" is a defensible one, by the way - though I happen to disagree with that view, on balance. |
To think needing basic information is a "technicality" when you're playing chess with other people's lives is beyond comprehension. However, ignoring that chauvinism for a moment, the basic questions are obvious.
First, what sanctions do you have in mind, exactly? Will these sanctions really hurt Putin and his cronies politically, or will they do what most sanctions do and simply hurt other people?
Second, if sanctions did somehow manage to cause less net suffering in Ukraine by weakening Putin's grip, could this destabilise Russia, and if so is the replacement for Putin better or worse than the devil we know?
Third, what if sanctions actually cause Putin to call your bluff? What if China then supports Russia? Where does it go from there?
Fourth, what do the separatists want? Do they have any valid claims? Will this just keep flaring up regardless? Will the Ukrainian right retaliate violently if placed in a position of superiority?
Fifth, is Putin just being a dumb thug, or do the Russians see Ukraine as a buffer state? That is, does Russia have some internal logic here (agree with it or not)? If so, are NATO and the US provoking this in any way?
Sixth, which energy players and financiers are involved here? Is anyone beating the drums of war and provocation who stands to benefit from certain types of sanctions?
Seventh, what if sanctions drive up energy prices again? Last time that happened during the Iraq War, it helped stress global financial leverage to breaking point, causing enormous economic suffering when the GFC hit.
Eighth, what if this causes a split in the EU? Isn't a divided EU a far greater problem?
More to follow as I have to run—that's just a brief list off the top of my head, none of which are mere "spreadsheet technicalities".
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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rocketronnie
Joined: 06 Sep 2006
Location: Reservoir
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| Tannin wrote: | | rocketronnie wrote: | | Talk of sanctions to bring the maniac Russian bear to its quivering knees! I had to chuckle when I read Tannin's sabre rattling blather. |
Bullshit.
You haven't read it at all - that is made very clear by your daft pretence that calling for economic sanctions is "sabre rattling". Sabre rattling is where you threaten for military action, send in the B-52s, or call out the Army reserves.
If you could be bothered learning to read, you'd discover that I - like most other sensible posters here - am calling for measured, practical (and 100% peaceful) economic sanctions to bring Putin to his senses and restore as much peace to the region as can be hoped for. Pretending calls for non-violent, peaceful economic pressure are "sabre rattling" is beyond stupid.
(I don't mind being criticised for what I am and what I say, that's all part of the rough and tumble, but it gets up my nose when posters here are too stupid or too lazy to bother reading what I actually wrote and just tee off on some complete fantasy bullshit that they made up out of their own heads. What RR wrote just now has got nothing whatever to do with me. He apparently has a need to yell at some military fantasist. There isn't one here, in this thread, at least no-one that I've noticed, so he made one up. That's fine, RR, make up whatever fantasy turns you on. Just leave me out of it.) |
Lol When you can't answer the substantive attack the poster. Not sabre rattling? I'd say you definitely are with your intemperate one sided rants. Using language to dehumanise and stereotype the "enemy" is a form of sabre rattling also. Happy only with sanctions? Yep sure.
Here are a few choice examples of Tannin's intemperate demonising language from the first ten pages (I couldn't be bothered going past page 10 but I'm sure there are plenty of other examples)
"aggressive Russian madman"
"Russia's leader, Putin, is a very, very dangerous egomaniac and international nutcase of the kind not seen since Hitler died." (Oh really?)
"Putin ruthlessly exploits weakness and division and civilised behaviour. Putin would love a war."
"Time to drop the drawbridge on this murdering international madman"
"mad dog Russian extremists"
"hitting the lunatic ultimately responsible"
I'm also amused by you attempting to pass off Radio Free Europe (CIA funded) and some superannuated EU cold war warrior as objective sources lol.
You have attempted to belittle anyone who opposes your one sided view of this situation when in reality you know SFA about the situation there and the forces at play there.
Personally I think you should take off to Moscow and give that 'raving lunatic' Putin a good piece of your mind. I'm sure he'd find it very instructive. 
_________________
"Only the weak believe that what they do in battle is who they are as men" - Thomas Marshall - "Ironclad".
Last edited by rocketronnie on Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:50 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| ^^^ This is precisely why banning rutile exports is such an important measure. It sends a strong message that we may get serious soon and creates the illusion of carefully considered activity, all without harming the innocent (or, for that matter, actually doing anything). |
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