MH17
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Member 7167 wrote: | | think positive wrote: | Yeah Sui, but would you be in that plane if you knew that?
The airline has to take some responsibility,
But the main burden is on the twot with the missile.
Saw some expert on the report before, said that no, it couldn't have been a mistake, he would have known what he was aiming at. Surely that's murder x 289. |
And the idiot who gave them the missiles who I would suggest was Russia. |
They captured it from Ukraine I believe. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Wokko wrote: | The plane was a blip on a radar screen flying at 10km over a war zone. It was a tragic wartime accident. I find it strange that there doesn't appear to be sympathy towards the Russian speaking majority in Eastern Ukraine that voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. Also in Crimea, where a referendum was held to return Crimea to Russia (It was Russia until 1954) I saw nothing but negative press coverage towards the Russians.
Culpability rests firmly with Malaysian Airlines for flying over a rebel held territory where they had been shooting down Ukrainian transports and fighters. |
My girlfriend hails from deep inside the eastern, Russian-speaking part of Ukraine herself, and she has little sympathy for the separatists' cause. You have to remember that what's happening in Donetsk is hardly some organic rebellion brought about from Ukrainian oppression; it's simply an arm of the same Russian imperialist movement that saw Crimea occupied and the build-up of forces around the eastern border. It's suspected that a good percentage of the fighters in the Donetsk area aren't even locals, but simply militants bussed in from Russia.
Remember that this only started because Putin's lackey Yanukovych was deposed. There was no civil war when the last pro-EU Ukrainian government was in charge. This is about Putin losing control of the region.
Of course, it's true that there is a lot of pro-Russian sentiment in the east and perhaps a majority of people in Crimea, Donetsk and Kharkov who feel closer to Moscow than Kiev. But most of those never asked for or wanted a civil war. The only ones to gain from that, apart from the minority of extremists on both sides, are the Russian government, who are happy to carve Ukraine up if they can't have all of it.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Just tired of our own propaganda getting swallowed up but anything from a Russian perspective immediately dismissed. It's like people can only see something is propaganda if it's being produced by the 'other' but when it's our own, or our Allies then it's 'news' and all true.
USA/EU have their own agenda in Ukraine and it's nothing to do with the Ukrainian people. Equally Russia, but lets not drink the CNN kool-aid to use an American phrase, because the US 'news' has been proven time and again to be biased propaganda too. You seem to be willing to dig a little deeper David, but the vast, vast majority just want to watch the 6pm news and believe. |
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Museman
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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| Wokko wrote: | The plane was a blip on a radar screen flying at 10km over a war zone. It was a tragic wartime accident. I find it strange that there doesn't appear to be sympathy towards the Russian speaking majority in Eastern Ukraine that voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. Also in Crimea, where a referendum was held to return Crimea to Russia (It was Russia until 1954) I saw nothing but negative press coverage towards the Russians.
Culpability rests firmly with Malaysian Airlines for flying over a rebel held territory where they had been shooting down Ukrainian transports and fighters.
As for why would Ukraine do it themselves... well to me that seems obvious. To build a groundswell of support in the West for intervention from NATO or the UN in the breakaway regions. Equal and opposite to this is why the Rebels or Russia had nothing to gain whatsoever from doing this on purpose. |
someone gets it.
wasn't the referendum 80 odd percent turnout with in favor vote at high 90 percent. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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It was also rigged. There was no status quo option.
And let's not forget that it's completely contrary to international law to invade another country's sovereign territory and hold a referendum, no matter how much public support you have.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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This could be Abbott's Port Arthur moment. He's doing a reasonable impersonation of a leader at the moment.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Mugwump wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: |
If you consider the EU and Russia as equally untrustworthy, I think your relativism has gone too far. One of these is a borderline dictatorship with the blood of Chechnya and georgia on its hands, and the other is a largely herbivorous attempt to supersede nationalism. If you see these as moral equals, or even equals in terms of creibility, I think you are probably undermining the values i'm sure you sincerely hold.
EDiT : it may be that you are solely talking of the two "Ukrainian" sides in the conflict, in which case you are right to be sceptical until much more is known. |
Yes; it's just a general sane principle. There simply is no "our side" in the new multipolar world (if there ever was).
Remember, five minutes ago Anglo-America started the unrivaled disasters of Iraq and Afghanistan; two minutes ago the wealthy European elite drove Germany to inflict immense suffering on the Eurozone with a sadistic and demonstrably ineffective response to the GFC in order to protect debtors over creditors; somewhere in between Germany blocked close scrutiny of Russia's activities when it suited and the US beat the drums of war against Iran and provoked Russia with an idiotic plan for a European missile defense shield.
The point being there are enough powerful scumbags anywhere you bother looking to warrant a universal suspicion of everything you hear about such incidents. |
Nope, there is a difference bwteen democracies that believe in free and fair elections, a free press, and the right of peoples to self-determination. Compare Britain's apporach to Scottish separatism and Putin's approach to Ukraine's desire to join the EU.
Nothing is perfect, including the Western alliance. The difference is that we are free to debate our imperfections without fear of being murdered, unlike in Russia. The two systems are not equal, any more than they were during the Cold War ; and the credibility of western governments is far greater than that of Putin and his ilk. Relativism is an intelligent response, up to a point - but beyond that point it's self-defeating, because it accords repression the same credibility as liberal democracy, and repression has no place for relativism. |
Except that does not in any way at all whatsoever weaken my claim, summarised as follows:
| pietillidie wrote: | | The point being there are enough powerful scumbags anywhere you bother looking to warrant a universal suspicion of everything you hear about such incidents. |
I'm sure the limbless Iraqi children really couldn't give a flying stuff about your "free and fair elections" and "free press". Like that helped them.
You're confusing the fortune we find ourselves in with my claim that there are enough scumbags anywhere you bother looking—scumbags ever-willing to cause suffering to others if given half a chance—to warrant a universal suspicion. It would be outlandish to believe otherwise, though I understand how hard it is to let go of the comforts of exceptionalism when you're not the one on the ugly end of it and haven't been tested by harsh life conditions.
If you analyse the problem less defensively, you'll discover the main reason people struggle with cultural and contextual relativism is that it demands they let go of that other opiate of the masses, namely delusions of national/cultural/racial/group superiority. Relativism is challenging because it implies we're members of the same species who just so happen to find ourselves born into better and worse situations, making morality a case of living up to our own internal cultural standards, rather than simply being "better" than some less fortunate group of Homo sapiens elsewhere.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Fire Up 
Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Location: in a house
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | This could be Abbott's Port Arthur moment. He's doing a reasonable impersonation of a leader at the moment. |
Easy to talk tough when you're in a position of no global influence. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he's taking an aggressive approach, but it's a bit like a fox terrier yapping at a bodybuilder who's just taken his dinner away.
If Russia were China and the US weren't leading the chorus, Abbott would be using slightly more diplomatic language right now.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | This could be Abbott's Port Arthur moment. He's doing a reasonable impersonation of a leader at the moment. |
Easy to talk tough when you're in a position of no global influence. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he's taking an aggressive approach, but it's a bit like a fox terrier yapping at a bodybuilder who's just taken his dinner away.
If Russia were China and the US weren't leading the chorus, Abbott would be using slightly more diplomatic language right now. |
LOL Port Arthur indeed!
Like Howard, Abbott can now condemn one mad psychopath at absolutely zero political cost to "counterbalance" his cheering on of that other mad psychopath who invaded Iraq and his trampling on the international human rights of asylum seekers at great political gain.
Now that's what I call a Man of Steel!
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| The saddest thing is to see our Media in hysteria to get the best "death story". The media are celebrating this horror as it means ratings. I have started to switch channels as soon as a story starts. The horror is real and the media treat it as a game. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Yes, but it has always been so and always will be. "Bad news is good news."
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| True, but I won't let the media into my space. It's like inviting someone into your lounge room to shit on your floor. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Interesting gossip. |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| Wokko wrote: | | The plane was a blip on a radar screen flying at 10km over a war zone. It was a tragic wartime accident. |
^ this is utterly moronic. "Accident"! What a disgusting, stupid, quite idiotic thing to say.
Murder is murder. You CANNOT fire a huge, complicated, deadly surface-to-air missile at an airliner 33,000 feet in the air by "accident". If you were in fact trying to murder someone else instead, that is still murder.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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