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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Sorry I don't have access to that document. |
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Dr Pie
Dr Pie
Joined: 08 Nov 2007
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| Morrigu wrote: | How very very sad - what a senseless tragic loss 
The world lost a great , gifted and committed man in Joep Lange - I had the pleasure of meeting and talking to him on a couple of occasions at WHO seminars - his work in HIV research and his commitment to making the best treatment available to people in poorer countries particularly Africa was outstanding.
I'm not suggesting the loss of Joep is more important than the life of anyone else unfortunate enough to be on that plane - just a personal memory.
The blame for this atrocity cannot be shifted from those that made the decision and fired the missile - but there is a tiny bit of me that wonders if Malaysian had not had the year they have had which must have cost them a bomb would they like some airlines e.g Qantas have changed routes when the alert was issued in April regardless of the increased cost? |
Lange was one of a number of delegates to the World Aids conference shot down on the Malaysian plane. The value of these men and women to the world is far greater than the issue of whether Ukraine or Russia controls a couple of irrelevant forests in Eastern Europe.
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Born and raised in Black and White |
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Museman
Joined: 06 Jul 2009
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Museman wrote: | ^
yeah dickwats shooting $h!t in a war...who'd a thunk it. |
Wasn't like they were traipsing through a mine field singing the theme music to the banana splits ignoring all the signs, it's a frikking commercial airliner moving along 10km above the issues full of innocent people.
Usually even semi sane dickwads during wartime take a moment to check if who they're about to shoot at are actually unfriendly. 
You heard the intercepted communications yet? From the sound of it the main talent of the people in charge in that area would be as organic speedhumps. |
A, 2 Ukrainian aircraft have been brought down in the last week, they were not 10k above the issue they were 300m.
B, nothing sane about war.
C, communication's supplied by the Ukraine, who of course do not have a dog in this fight |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Dude, I can read. The "issue" is at ground level, they were 10k (10,000 metres,) above the issue. your 300 metre is how far above the safety ceiling they were. I don't get the relevance. Is 300 metres not far enough? Surely if the ceiling is X and you are X plus? then it doesn't matter what ? is, you're above the ceiling?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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Why would Ukraine shoot down a commercial airliner even if by mistake they thought it was a Russian supply plane?
They are seriously out gunned by Russia by whichever way you look at it and I can't see them giving the Russians an excuse to use excessive force to take over the area of Ukraine currently in dispute by blowing up one of there planes.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Yeah Sui, but would you be in that plane if you knew that?
The airline has to take some responsibility,
But the main burden is on the twot with the missile.
Saw some expert on the report before, said that no, it couldn't have been a mistake, he would have known what he was aiming at. Surely that's murder x 289.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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I wanna see Putin wriggle out of this one.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| Woods Of Ypres wrote: | | it was an accident it seems. |
No it was Murder! |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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An absolute tragedy for all those on board.
I don't think we should jump the gun instantly and assume straight away that Pro-Russian separatists are behind this tragedy even though it's likely that they are due to having the weaponry cable of shooting down a plane like the one we saw this morning. I personally believe that they are behind it but without solid conclusive evidence to support this viewpoint everything else is mere speculation in my view. I'm not definitely not dismissing the involvement Ukraine may have in all of this as well.
Malaysian Airlines are guilty of incompetence for flying over the Ukrainian area especially with the prior warnings that the airline would have had in the months leading up to this event. It's hard to see the airline recovering from this especially after the two biggest aviation disaster stories have both involved their airline this year.
It's been an odd day seeing this unravel and reading the papers throughout the day at uni. My condolences go to the family and friends of all the victims today. I can't imagine how they would be feeling right now.
RIP to all 298 people on board MH17 
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| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
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Jezza
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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| think positive wrote: | | Plane shouldn't have been there, there has been alerts. (300 metres above the no fly zone is too close for me, I mean if someone told you there was a was zone 300 metres down, you'd get on the flight?) Russia should not be feeding the so called seperationists missiles, and someone should have checked what they were shooting at. |
You're not wrong TP. This map I saw in the paper today really just goes to show how many flights were avoiding flying over Ukraine in Europe.
Surely Malaysian Airlines knew of the warnings and should have taken the appropriate action to not fly over an area where conflict is existent between two states at the present time. I guess hindsight is a wonderful thing now.
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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^Pretty sure the map you are showing is what occurred after the shooting down of the plane and not before.
Anyhow there are reports that apparently 80 children were amongst those killed.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| pietillidie wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: |
If you consider the EU and Russia as equally untrustworthy, I think your relativism has gone too far. One of these is a borderline dictatorship with the blood of Chechnya and georgia on its hands, and the other is a largely herbivorous attempt to supersede nationalism. If you see these as moral equals, or even equals in terms of creibility, I think you are probably undermining the values i'm sure you sincerely hold.
EDiT : it may be that you are solely talking of the two "Ukrainian" sides in the conflict, in which case you are right to be sceptical until much more is known. |
Yes; it's just a general sane principle. There simply is no "our side" in the new multipolar world (if there ever was).
Remember, five minutes ago Anglo-America started the unrivaled disasters of Iraq and Afghanistan; two minutes ago the wealthy European elite drove Germany to inflict immense suffering on the Eurozone with a sadistic and demonstrably ineffective response to the GFC in order to protect debtors over creditors; somewhere in between Germany blocked close scrutiny of Russia's activities when it suited and the US beat the drums of war against Iran and provoked Russia with an idiotic plan for a European missile defense shield.
The point being there are enough powerful scumbags anywhere you bother looking to warrant a universal suspicion of everything you hear about such incidents. |
Nope, there is a difference bwteen democracies that believe in free and fair elections, a free press, and the right of peoples to self-determination. Compare Britain's apporach to Scottish separatism and Putin's approach to Ukraine's desire to join the EU.
Nothing is perfect, including the Western alliance. The difference is that we are free to debate our imperfections without fear of being murdered, unlike in Russia. The two systems are not equal, any more than they were during the Cold War ; and the credibility of western governments is far greater than that of Putin and his ilk. Relativism is an intelligent response, up to a point - but beyond that point it's self-defeating, because it accords repression the same credibility as liberal democracy, and repression has no place for relativism.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Even Putin and his propaganda team are practically admitting that the separatists did it, so I'd say we can put the theory that this was a Ukrainian attack to bed. Given that it's indisputable fact that the separatists are being fed arms by the Russian government and that they are essentially fighting a Russian proxy war, Putin and his government bear a great deal of responsibility for this.
Having said that, claims that this was a "terrorist" attack are almost certainly wrong. Terrorists blow civilians up in order to intimidate and frighten the general populace. The separatists had nothing to gain from taking down an international flight but terrible PR. This just seems to be a case of tragic, criminal military incompetence.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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The plane was a blip on a radar screen flying at 10km over a war zone. It was a tragic wartime accident. I find it strange that there doesn't appear to be sympathy towards the Russian speaking majority in Eastern Ukraine that voted overwhelmingly to join Russia. Also in Crimea, where a referendum was held to return Crimea to Russia (It was Russia until 1954) I saw nothing but negative press coverage towards the Russians.
Culpability rests firmly with Malaysian Airlines for flying over a rebel held territory where they had been shooting down Ukrainian transports and fighters.
As for why would Ukraine do it themselves... well to me that seems obvious. To build a groundswell of support in the West for intervention from NATO or the UN in the breakaway regions. Equal and opposite to this is why the Rebels or Russia had nothing to gain whatsoever from doing this on purpose. |
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Member 7167 
"What Good Fortune For Governments That The People Do Not Think" - Adolf Hitler.
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Location: The Collibran Hideout
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| think positive wrote: | Yeah Sui, but would you be in that plane if you knew that?
The airline has to take some responsibility,
But the main burden is on the twot with the missile.
Saw some expert on the report before, said that no, it couldn't have been a mistake, he would have known what he was aiming at. Surely that's murder x 289. |
And the idiot who gave them the missiles who I would suggest was Russia. |
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