MH17
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Ha too late for that
Been done a million times
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| The Prototype wrote: | There was a touching tribute in New Zealand before the Newcastle and Sydney FC friendly. The seats that the two Newcastle fans would have sat had been done up with a tribute flowers and a banner were on offer plus a moment of silence for those taken in the tragedy.
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Lovely tribute!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| David wrote: | | To be fair to Malaysia Airlines, it's not easy to avoid Ukraine, Syria, Iraq and Israel if you're travelling from South-East Asia to Western Europe. Obviously all precautions should be taken, but it's not as if there's an easy detour. |
France and the US have been warning passenger planes NOT to fly over eastern Ukraine since last April.
Areoflot, Lufthansa, Turkish and Malaysian Airlines were the only companies ignoring the warning.
If your flight path leads over a war zone the airline had an obligation to do all things humanly possible to avoid chance of this sort of tragedy.
It's not exactly rocket surgery, you fly further north or fly further south (even IF it cost a few dollars more).
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2699452/Avoiding-MH17-plane-disaster-cost-Malaysia-Airlines-just-66-passenger.html
Last edited by 3.14159 on Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:03 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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How to recognise a dead bloke as a soccer player.
A sunburn strip about an inch wide over the kneecap, where the gap between the bottom of the shorts and the top of the socks is.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Morrigu wrote: | | The Prototype wrote: | There was a touching tribute in New Zealand before the Newcastle and Sydney FC friendly. The seats that the two Newcastle fans would have sat had been done up with a tribute flowers and a banner were on offer plus a moment of silence for those taken in the tragedy.
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Lovely tribute! |
That really is beautiful
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| When was this exactly? |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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I was on plane with a soccer player a few a while ago.
The drinks trolley ran over his toe and sending scolding hot coffee all over me.
At which point he threw himself on the floor clutching his shin and screaming about the pain and injury and the bite marks on his shoulder and demanding a penalty.
they bumped him to first class.
They asked me if I wanted a refill and a some wet wipes to sit on?
errr, hang on a minute, now I think about it,he wasn't a soccer player, he was a solicitor...
Last edited by 3.14159 on Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:02 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| Quote: | | Areoflot, Lufthansa, Turkish and Malaysian Airlines were the only companies ignoring the warning. |
Virgin Atlantic had a packed Heathrow-bound airliner flying through Ukrainian airspace when MH17 was brought down.
Flight VS301 from Delhi to London was over the city of Zaporizhia, in Eastern Ukraine, and just 140 miles from where the missile was launched.
It was one of nearly 300 planes in Ukrainian airspace, of which 55 - including six flights from Heathrow Airport - were in the immediate war zone.
It was also one of three Virgin Atlantic airliners plotted flying over the Ukraine in the seven days leading up to the attack by flight tracking aviation website Flightradar24.com.
A Singapore Airlines passenger plane was flying just 15 miles away when flight MH17 was shot down.
Other airlines which used the same airspace over Donetsk as the MH17 plane on the same day include Jet Airways, Thai Airways, Pakistan International Airlines, Qatar Airways, Etihad; Emirates, and Austrian Airlines.
There was also another Malaysian Airlines flight travelling from Heathrow to Kuala Lumpur
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/travel_news/article-2697098/THREE-HUNDRED-planes-scheduled-fly-Ukraine-day-MH17-tragedy.html#ixzz38CPL6HDN
Who the hell would even consider flying Aeroflot even if they were paying you 
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| Tannin wrote: | | PTID is violently in favour of inaction. |
No! Wrong! I'm in favour of doing due diligence and knowing what's going on the actors, the power trail, money trail, the different options and their implications, etc.before pontificating on the matter. This type of thing could very easily snowball out of control because the forces involved are complex and unpredictable, so you owe it to the people you're trying to persuade to be diligent.
Unfortunately, neither yourself nor the media have told us anything beyond common knowledge on the matter.
I mean, we don't even know enough about this topic to distinguish between good and bad sources, not to mention we have zero field experience pertaining to the problem, yet you speak as if you're discussing something we know you're an expert in, such as Australian wildlife.
And those are precisely the same things I argued prior to the Iraq War.
And David, it's not that there's nothing to be said and nothing valid you or I or Tannin could say, but we haven't even pointed to serious expert opinions on the issue. Wouldn't that be the place to start?
I mean, if you're discussing human behaviour, and you reference Sapolsky in knowledgeable depth, you are conducting a kind of due diligence even though you're not an expert. But, in this case, you've skipped right over that, probably because you wouldn't even know where to start, as I wouldn't. Isn't that a warning sign?
And you guys are missing one of the keys here. We have very little power over these things; all politicians need is a whiff of a green light and then it's out of our hands. They don't hear "measured response", they hear "take action". And then all the opportunistic parasites and compliant media outlets jump on board, and your green light suddenly takes a nasty turn.
All I'm asking for is due diligence and responsibility. Let's not play flippant with these things; yes, that also means I will look at any good analyses put forwardif only someone would bother doing so!
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Both Tannin and I have posted articles from The Conversation, which may not be tablets from the mount, but is at least quality information from experts in the field. It's not exactly a scientific research paper, but it's a step above The Age and The Herald Sun.
Keep in mind I also know a littlenot a lot, grantedmore about this subject than most on here due to my relationship with my fiance, who has been following these events (from the beginnings of the Maidan Square protests to now) very closely in three languages and has firsthand knowledge of the cultural context. She also has friends and family members who are in Eastern Ukraine right now and unfortunately not nearly far enough away from the primary conflict zones. That doesn't make me an expertI'm still only receiving secondhand informationbut it means I can say with some confidence that I'm not as ignorant about this situation as I am about Gaza or Western Iraq.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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A warning WAS issued.
Pilots have the option of switching flight corridors to suit the weather conditions (and how much fuel they are burning...$$$ the flight costs).
Pilots are graded severely if they burn than the bean counters think they should have or if flights are late etc etc.
(The twin jumbo crash in the Canary's was primarily caused by a pilot under pressure to get to his plane in the air before a new shift began).
Virgin (and the other airlines you mentioned) had a policy of avoiding the area but operational expedience (and the bottom line) won the day as per...
| Morrigu wrote: |
Who the hell would even consider flying Aeroflot even if they were paying you |
If I was flying over eastern Ukraine I'd think I'd choose Aeroflot.
At least with them it'd friendly fire. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | All but 3 of the worlds major airlines have been skirting Eastern Ukraine for months. |
What are you talking about? Since when were there three "major" airlines? Are you looking for the most successful and most respected airline in the world? (Respected by people who actually know anything about aircraft and airlines, I mean.) That would be Singapore Airlines. Others are well-respected, SIA is widely accepted as the benchmark. Or maybe the biggest and most successful growth airline? That would be Emirates, with one or two others also in the mix. Or are you just looking for the flat-out biggest airline of the lot? That is Lufthansa, which is even bigger - and far more successful - than the American giants (which spend half their time buying out other airlines and the other half in Chapter 11 bankruptcy, notorious for it. Those are the three that I'd pick if you held a gun to my head and said "pick the three major world airlines".
Guess what: Singapore Airlines, the best airline in the world, was flying the exact same flightpath as the Malaysian one that got shot down, and flying it quite a bit more often. Guess what else: Lufthansa, the biggest airline in the world, was flying it too. So were 86 other airlines. Eighty eight counting the first two I mentioned. I don't know if Emirates was one of them or not, but you get the point. Many, many airlines were criss-crossing the area as routine, thinking they wer perfectly safe. And they were until some power-drunk Russian idiot gave some other power-drunk Russian maniac a seriously high-tech surface-to-air missile and all the training and equipment it takes to fire it.
Edit: I slightly misread your OP. No matter, I'll let my answer stand.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives!
Last edited by Tannin on Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | (The twin jumbo crash in the Canary's was primarily caused by a pilot under pressure to get to his plane in the air before a new shift began). |
No. That's a gross oversimplification, and the pressure was certainly not from the company, it was the self-generated pressure of wanting to do a good job (get all those people flying) and wanting to get home somewhere within a day or two of on-time.
In any case, that was just one of many contributory factors. The single most important case of that - the worst air disaster of all time - was the pig-headed behaviour of the very senior KLM Captain who was specifically told of the danger several times by the very, very junior First Officer but refused to listen because the FO was on his very first trip and obviously knew nothing while the Captain was very senor indeed and vastly experienced and not to be questioned. It's all there on the cockpit voice recorder. I have very detailed reports on it if you would like to borrow them - gristly reading but very interesting.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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I didn't say there was 3 major airlines or any thing about how respected they are.
A warning does not mean forbidden, it means being "advised not to do something!"
Singapore, Virgin (and the rest) "advised" their pilots and flight planners NOT to fly over this area, Lufthansa, Turkish and Singapore did not.
You'd think "common sense" might come into play planning routes but I guess I'd be wrong there too? |
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