MH17

[Tannin]

[David]

*Sigh* Can people please stop assigning me to certain positions? I have many disagreements with both your and Mugwump's argument, Tannin. I hardly think PTID is pro-occupation of Ukraine and I don't think it's terribly helpful to suggest he is.

As for me, if anyone's actually bothered to read my posts, I'm calling for a moderated response (that is, dialing down the aggression of America and its allies whilst not letting Putin off the hook); nothing more, nothing less. If that's "meaningless rhetoric", well, I dunno, let's talk about Britney Spears' latest album instead, because apparently that's all we're qualified to do.

[HAL]

Where did you get your disagreements with your and Mugwump's argument Tannin? I have a birthday on 2001.

[Tannin]

[stui magpie]

[HAL]

Are you asking about my response consider what this response might be and what is the intended impact of the response?

[David]

The thing is that, much like PTID, I just don't know. I'm inclined to support continuing sanctions as pretty much the only effective response, but I totally accept what you say about their potential negative consequences and inability to curb Putin's aggression in any meaningful way. Getting the EU more fully on board as Tannin suggests might be one way, but that's easier said than done; otherwise, we're left in a state of frustrated powerlessness and ineffective UN resolutions. Far from ideal, but the alternative may be a good deal worse.

What this situation requires most of all is courage and cool heads.

It should be noted, as I think Mugwump already has, that a year or two ago the world was faced with a much more urgent humanitarian crisis and far greater injustices in Syria and ended up essentially doing nothing. As far as I can tell—and I'm happy for someone to contradict me—they did the right thing. I don't say that lightly. And no, Tannin, that doesn't mean I was in favour of Assad's forces massacring civilians.

I would like to know what exactly we're doing about Israel right now, though. Probably a pat on the back and some gentle constructive criticism.

[Tannin]

No David, the world was NOT faced with a largely similar situation in Syria. There was no foreign aggressor nation trying to move in and take the place over at gunpoint. There was conflict between a terrible government and a rebel movement about which it's hard to generalise. We chose to ignore it and the result was terrible, not just for the people of Syria but also for Iraq, which has now been pretty much destroyed as a functioning state by a mad-dog movement growing out of that Syrian mess.

Should we have ignored it? I dunno. I didn't know then and I don't know now. I don't think anybody knows. The result we got was terrible, would it have been any better or any worse if we had done something differently? It's beyond my ability to answer that, maybe you can. I'm pretty sure that western troops on the ground would have been a disaster, beyond that I can't say.

One thing we did do there was lean on the Syrian government and say "any more gas warfare and you guys are in very deep shit". That worked, and full credit to the USA for its role there. That was a good intervention.

The situation in Eastern Europe is very different. there we have a clear aggressor nation beating up smaller countries. that has to stop. No ifs, no buts, it has to stop. And the people who have to stop it are the Europeans. Not the Americans, the Europeans. They have to grow a pair and do something practical. Sure, they should have the US standing behind them as a backstop, but it's up to the Europeans themselves to use their biggest and most powerful weapon to stop the aggression. It's called "money", and it can achieve amazing things. It's pretty simple, Mr Putin: you no stoppa da war, we no buya da oil. You makea da call.

[3.14159]

All but 3 of the worlds major airlines have been skirting Eastern Ukraine for months.
Why do some airlines run the risk of flying over a war zone to save fuel as Malaysian has apparently been doing?
Malaysian announced today it will now fly over Syria instead.
None of this augers well for the future of the Airline.
If people believe the bean counters at Malaysian want to play Russian Roulette* with it's passengers lives, it just won't fly!

~ To misquote Oscar Wilde.
To lose 1 airliner full of ppl in mysterious circumstances is unfortunate.
To lose 2 in months is down-right reckless!

*pun belatedly noticed...oops.

[stui magpie]

[David]

To be fair to Malaysia Airlines, it's not easy to avoid Ukraine, Syria, Iraq and Israel if you're travelling from South-East Asia to Western Europe. Obviously all precautions should be taken, but it's not as if there's an easy detour.

[think positive]

[The Prototype]

There was a touching tribute in New Zealand before the Newcastle and Sydney FC friendly. The seats that the two Newcastle fans would have sat had been done up with a tribute flowers and a banner were on offer plus a moment of silence for those taken in the tragedy.

[stui magpie]

[Mugwump]