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Israeli/Palestinian conflict: will it ever end?

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:57 pm
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Wokko wrote:
Obama wasn't a slave nor does he have slave ancestry. His father is Kenyan and his Mother is white.


He can leave his slippers under my bed any day...

Oops wrong thread Embarassed

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:57 pm
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Sorry, I disagree. They can get weapons in but can't get in the things you talk about? C'mon. I don't buy that anymore than I buy that their only option is indiscriminately firing rockets into civilian areas from specially selected civilian areas.

It's all a political fkn chess game and the dead kids are nothing more than pawns.

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:15 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
It's a well known and oft used tactic. Extract maximum sympathy for your cause by making sure the big nasty opposition takes out women and kids.

How better to make sure that Isreal takes out women and kids than by firing your own rockets (indiscriminately I might add) from places that contain women and children. Straight away you conflict your enemy, they either fire back knowing there's woman and children there, attracting media condemnation, or they don't fire back and suck it up because they don't want the bad press. In this situation, Hamas win either way. They're obviously happy to sacrifice a few civilians for the cause and happy to aim their own rockets and bombs at civilian targets, but they get all the sympathy. Rolling Eyes


As I wrote elsewhere, this is only the dilemma if you think life is an Arnold Schwarzenegger film. It's not just "kill or be killed", there's the third, much more obvious option of coming up with a ceasefire plan that both sides can agree on. The more carnage Israel causes, the more difficult it will be to achieve any kind of peace, and the more likely it will be that civilians on both sides continue to die.

Escalating this conflict as Israel has done is at very best an act of criminal negligence of the kind that the Russian separatists were guilty of. In reality, however, the Israeli government is much worse. They know that they're killing civilians and they keep doing it.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:21 pm
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Of course, how could I have missed that option, the nasty facist Israelis could just stop doing nasty things to the poor Hamas.

Life is not an Arnie film, nor is it some idealistic place where people don't have agendas and all things can be solved if we all just think of the common good and share.

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Morrigu Capricorn



Joined: 11 Aug 2001


PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:26 pm
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^ that reply is beneath you!

Hamas are NOT the totality of the people of Gaza - as the IRA were not the totality of the Irish people.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:37 pm
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Morrigu wrote:
^ that reply is beneath you!

Hamas are NOT the totality of the people of Gaza - as the IRA were not the totality of the Irish people.


I hate when you do that. Sad

Agreed that Hamas are not the totality of the people of Gaza, there's a fair number (actually probably the majority) who are just totally innocent.

But, they're still being totally used as pawns by Hamas and heaping all the blame on the Israelis is crap, IMO.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:44 pm
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I don't in any way think the government of the Gaza Strip are blameless in this. As I've said somewhere else in the thread, I think they're probably even less reasonable than the Israeli government and possibly a lot scarier if they had access to the same weaponry. But they don't. They're minnows in every respect compared to Israelstandard of living, access to resources, weaponryand their casualties are always much, much higher in these conflicts. So, I don't heap all the blame on Israel, but I don't apportion equal share of responsibility, either. Israel are the bigger force here and they have to take the higher ground.
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:47 pm
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Morrigu wrote:
^ that reply is beneath you!

Hamas are NOT the totality of the people of Gaza - as the IRA were not the totality of the Irish people.


Just with respect to your analogy only & without prejudice to good bad or ugly there currently:

Hamas were voted in by the majority in Gaza.

They then violently overthrew & kicked out Fatah.

Before the current conflict Hamas were probably losing in opinion polls.

The Irish as far as I know never voted in the IRA.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:52 pm
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^ Exactly! And guess who's going to keep getting voted in as long as Israel keeps up its campaign of belligerence?
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stui magpie Gemini

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:05 pm
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David wrote:
I don't in any way think the government of the Gaza Strip are blameless in this. As I've said somewhere else in the thread, I think they're probably even less reasonable than the Israeli government and possibly a lot scarier if they had access to the same weaponry. But they don't. They're minnows in every respect compared to Israelstandard of living, access to resources, weaponryand their casualties are always much, much higher in these conflicts. So, I don't heap all the blame on Israel, but I don't apportion equal share of responsibility, either. Israel are the bigger force here and they have to take the higher ground.


Why? if you don't have a gun but you keep throwing rocks at a man who does until he cracks and shoots you, why is the fault his?

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swoop42 Virgo

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Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:08 pm
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Well given the Palestinian peoples seemingly continual support for Hamas one can only come to the conclusion that they or at least a section of them allow Hamas to put there fellow citizens in harms way by storing and firing rockets from civilian populated areas.

I was angry at Israel seeing the vision of dead and seriously injured children on the news tonight but given that Hamas still remain a political force within Gaza how else can you explain this fact if not for groups of people being complicit in allowing themselves to be used as some sort of human shield for there weapons.

I mean seriously what type of people would allow an organisation like Hamas to still exist when they only appear to bring suffering and harm to there people if those same people weren't at least in part supportive of there actions.

There is fault on both sides and sad to say I doubt this problem will ever be solved.

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1061 



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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:12 pm
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I saw a Palestinian man on the news say he didn't care if thousands died ..... this is the mindset we would consider abnormal.
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Morrigu Capricorn



Joined: 11 Aug 2001


PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:19 pm
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watt price tully wrote:
Morrigu wrote:
^ that reply is beneath you!

Hamas are NOT the totality of the people of Gaza - as the IRA were not the totality of the Irish people.


Just with respect to your analogy only & without prejudice to good bad or ugly there currently:

Hamas were voted in by the majority in Gaza.

They then violently overthrew & kicked out Fatah.

Before the current conflict Hamas were probably losing in opinion polls.

The Irish as far as I know never voted in the IRA.


Another discussion for another time perhaps WPT BUT ......

In Northern Ireland the only people who had the vote were those who paid local taxes or rates -because Catholics tended to be more poor than the Protestant community, to be less likely to have a job, they were less likely to be rate payers. As a result of that, fewer Catholics had a vote for local elections.

With the collapse of the civil rights campaign and virtually the government inside Northern Ireland, the IRA came into its own.

Those who benefitted most from the collapse of the civil rights movement were the militants on both sides. It meant that, in fact, politics as a process, which had never been strong in Northern Ireland, disappeared.

It meant that the most strident voices and those who could command weaponry were the people who set the agenda.

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Last edited by Morrigu on Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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AN_Inkling 



Joined: 06 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:20 pm
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1061 wrote:
I saw a Palestinian man on the news say he didn't care if thousands died ..... this is the mindset we would consider abnormal.


And the Israeli's don't care that they've actually killed thousands. What's your point?

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swoop42 Virgo

Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?


Joined: 02 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:20 pm
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Wokko wrote:
Obama wasn't a slave nor does he have slave ancestry. His father is Kenyan and his Mother is white.


And raised for the most part by his mothers white grandparents wasn't he?

Obama is bi-racial.

Fact.

Yet we are continued to be told he's African American.

Amazing how far white liberal guilt has taken us.

Hell it's even overcome what would otherwise be considered the blatant sexism of his mother being practically wiped from his lineage.

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