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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | Let's backtrack a little (and personal abuse really isn't warranted—can't we debate this issue without that? I don't recall any time I've insulted you).
| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Israel is surrounded by muslims states who basically want every Jew to GTF out or die. There will be no peace no matter what Israel does unless they leave or the muslims decide to leave them alone. |
When did a Muslim state last attack Israel? I know these things are relative, but apart from the odd war with Lebanon and Cold War with Iran, Israel has lived in peace with its neighbours for the last 20 years or so. Their only conflict of late has been with Palestinians. So I don't think what you're saying is actually relevant in 2014. |
And then you proceed to link to a Hamas document.
My point is that, despite what you said above, the Muslim nation states that surround Israel (of which Palestine clearly isn't one, as much as they'd like to be) have lived in comparative peace with them for quite a while now, despite the odd conflict. This is important because, despite their military capacity, Israel is often seen as (and like to see themselves as) a tiny little country surrounded by hostile enemies trying to invade it. That was the case in 1948 and 1967, but I'm not sure you can really say it's the case in 2014. Nowadays, the main conflict seems to be between the tiny country of Israel and the even tinier Palestinian territories that lie within its 1967 borders. There, it's quite clear who the stronger power is.
As for religion, it clearly plays a strong role in these conflicts, but this one is far more complex than simply Jews vs Muslims. Nationalism, borders, basic living conditions, memories of previous conflicts... all of these things play significant roles. |
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by drawing a distinction between "Palestinians" and "Islamic states".
Lets backtrack again.
The Gaza strip is the area of conflict.
The Gaza Strip is occupied by people who, for want of a better term we'll call Palestinians.
Hamas is the "elected" government of Gaza
Hamas is (as outlined in the charter I linked to) an Islamic organisation.
So, how can you conclude that Gaza is not an islamic state?
When did a muslim state last attack Israel? Hamas fire rockets in there daily, from civilian areas, for which Israel retaliates and people die.
I apologise for the insult but you are the most frustrating human being to have an argument with that I have ever encountered.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Fair call on the latter, but I think this time is a simple misunderstanding. No, Gaza is not a state in any way, shape or form. Hamas is not a state either. Even if we were to go as far as to call Palestine as a whole a 'state' (it isn't for most intents and purposes, though the UN did give it 'observer state' status for the first time last year), its official government is the PLO, who wield no control over Gaza at present, though they made a treaty with Hamas recently. Technically, the Gaza Strip and West Bank lie within Israel's borders.
It may sound like I'm nitpicking, but the reason I'm writing all this is that I thought you meant that Israel is surrounded by Islamic nations which are hell-bent on destroying it, and that peace is unattainable until all these nations leave Israel alone. My point was that those countries have more or less left Israel in peace for decades. If you agree with all that, then the solution is not really for Muslim states in general to "just leaving Israel alone", but instead for one potential Muslim state—Palestine—and Israel to leave each other alone. The responsibility is shared.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | Fair call on the latter, but I think this time is a simple misunderstanding. No, Gaza is not a state in any way, shape or form. Hamas is not a state either. Even if we were to go as far as to call Palestine as a whole a 'state' (it isn't for most intents and purposes, though the UN did give it 'observer state' status for the first time last year), its official government is the PLO, who wield no control over Gaza at present, though they made a treaty with Hamas recently. Technically, the Gaza Strip and West Bank lie within Israel's borders.
It may sound like I'm nitpicking, but the reason I'm writing all this is that I thought you meant that Israel is surrounded by Islamic nations which are hell-bent on destroying it, and that peace is unattainable until all these nations leave Israel alone. My point was that those countries have more or less left Israel in peace for decades. If you agree with all that, then the solution is not really for Muslim states in general to "just leaving Israel alone", but instead for one potential Muslim state—Palestine—and Israel to leave each other alone. The responsibility is shared. |
and then children, they all live happily ever after     .
I'll have what you're smokin. Better gimme a double on that
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough†Kinky Friedman |
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Joel 
Joined: 23 Mar 1999
Location: Mornington Peninsula
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| David, I think it's a bit naive to believe that the Islamic nations surrounding Israel have simply left it alone for decades. They can just fund organisations such as Hamas to do the dirty work. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Oh, of course some of them have ties with Hamas, but how is that any different to the funding and weapons Israel gets from the US? I'm talking about direct conflict here, and on that front Egypt, Syria, Jordan and the gulf states have given them little trouble in recent years. Indeed, Egypt is actually collaborating with Israel in blockading Gaza. There's a lot more complexity to these conflicts than there might initially seem.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Israeli/Palestinian conflict: will it ever end?
Israeli/Palestinian conflict thread: will it ever end?
Probably not to both.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Tannin wrote: | Israeli/Palestinian conflict: will it ever end?
Israeli/Palestinian conflict thread: will it ever end?
Probably not to both. |
Did you fix the issue with the roof/spouting without killing the mrs?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Don't bother me now. I am busy. Sorry. Can't stop. Have to wash the shovel and put it away.
Should have the guttering finished any day now, probably around about the same time they close this thread and declare peace in the Middle-east.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Pa Marmo
Side by Side
Joined: 16 Jun 2003
Location: Nicks BB member #617
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| Tannin wrote: | | And the President of the USA is a Christian |
Just out curiosity, since when?
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Genesis 1:1 |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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He calls himself a Christian. His father was a Muslim, his step father was a Muslim, he went to school in Indonesia, a Muslim country, and he did 1 year in a Muslim school and three in a catholic school. From 89 for 20 years he attended a Christian church in Chicago, the trinity united church of Christ.
Like most people though, Sunday becomes family day when you have a busy life and kids, so they don't go to church as often as they used too. Fair enough.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| No matter what any of them likes to say, the Jewish/Muslim/Christian God is the same guy in the sky anyway. The rest is just semantics, |
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laird
Joined: 10 Oct 2009
Location: Perth
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| Wokko wrote: | | No matter what any of them likes to say, the Jewish/Muslim/Christian God is the same guy in the sky anyway. The rest is just semantics, |
Thanks for making it clear, Wokko 
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" Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye" ? |
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