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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | Hamas's charter is to destroy jews & israel. It's in their written misison statement.
However in case one has forgotton, a few details seems to have been omitted:
1. Hamas's raison de'tre is to eliminate Israel
2. In case people haven't noticed Hamas is armed with serious weaponry
3. There are more tunnels & infrastucture to be uncovered. The sole purpose of the tunnels & missiles in Gaza is to harm indiscriminately
4. It wasn't that long ago that thousands of Isrelis' died through suicide bombing etc via Hamas.
5. That is why their is restrivice movement in Gaza, & the sea.
6. We vnow see that cement that was banned by israel has been used to build tunnels
7. Israel fortunately has developed a 90% effective missile defence system that only covers major population & other areas not smaller towns & villages
If Israel wanted national suicide it should immediately sign on to Hamas's conditions.
De-militartize & Gaza can transform into a successful society. |
If you want to make Hamas stronger, then by all means continue to defend Israeli siege, military strikes and other acts aimed at blocking a two-state solution. Hardship tends to breed extremism. |
I'm trying to explain Israel's position which is seriously lacking in some views expressed here rather than defend it.
Some views merely look at things in isolation IMO without context. In that scenario I'm more than happy to provide the context.
Israel's problem is that if it eliminates Hamas who will replace it? Al Nusra?
I utterly defend Israel's right to check what comes in to Gaza. Look what happens now with restrictions.
Remember there was freedom of movement & employment of Palestinians by Israel before the first intafada - much much greater than there is now.
Now Thais & Filipino's & other third world people are employed in Israel & Gazan unempoyment has skyrocketted (excuse the terminology). One Thai has been murdered & one Bedoiun by Hamas so far (that I understand).
There is more to it than a Gazan or so called Palestinian narrative. There are many voices here not just the loudest
BTW I absolutely detest the current right wing Israeli goverment & it's policies.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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Blimey, I just read this. They don't really do that self-aware, a-bit-to-be-said -on-both-sides thing, do they? What's most interesting and important is the role Rotary and Lions clubs apparently play in keeping Islam in subjection. Perhaps if we offer to send them the heads of a few car-dealers and small-business leaders from (say) Carnegie, they'll be pacified..... 
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Two more flags before I die! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Morrigu wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | Yes but are you a Jewish or Muslim aethieist? |
I don't discriminate WPT I treat all religious doctrine as a fairy tale!
Apart from two branches - one being my mum and her siblings who came to Aus and another who went to America all of my family live in Eire.
When I was younger I got sucked in and I believed with every breath in my body the propaganda and supported the IRA - the cause seemed worthy and I lost family and friends - but the cause seemed worthy!
Now I realise the futility and just want to see an end to the horrific suffering - you and I both know dying would be the better outcome for many - the physical and psychological trauma.
I think the Israeli response is just way over the top - one example - 4 kids on a beach - sorry I can see no defence for that - this is not a second rate motley crew of untrained terrorists.
I have no interest in sides - simplistic as it is I just want the killing to stop  |
You still didn't answer the question !! 
I aslo can't & won't defend 4 innocents being killed like that. It's awful. BTW one of their relatives went & berated hamas at the time - seen by a news crew.
Untrained terrorsits. Sorry that is seriously wrong. The borders have been porous under Morsi. Many Hamas fighters have trained abroad & brought with them expertise. These aren't a motley crew finding a slingshot, The miltary wing of Hamas is seriously well trained & disciplined. So too with other fanatics.
In don't condone the klilling of civilians either.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| watt price tully wrote: |
Untrained terrorists. Sorry that is seriously wrong. The borders have been porous under Morsi. Many Hamas fighters have trained abroad & brought with them expertise. These aren't a motley crew finding a slingshot, The miltary wing of Hamas is seriously well trained & disciplined. So too with other fanatics.
In don't condone the klilling of civilians either. |
TORRORISTS this is what we should call them trained or not it's who they are. |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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 DP
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.”
Last edited by Morrigu on Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| watt price tully wrote: |
You still didn't answer the question !!
I aslo can't & won't defend 4 innocents being killed like that. It's awful. BTW one of their relatives went & berated hamas at the time - seen by a news crew.
Untrained terrorsits. Sorry that is seriously wrong. The borders have been porous under Morsi. Many Hamas fighters have trained abroad & brought with them expertise. These aren't a motley crew finding a slingshot, The miltary wing of Hamas is seriously well trained & disciplined. So too with other fanatics.
In don't condone the klilling of civilians either. |
What was the question 
I wasn't suggesting that Hamas are not trained and armed - what I was saying is that the Israeli military are not a motley crew of untrained terrorists so making the mistake they made with those poor kids is unforgivable.
I know you don't - that is a given!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| There is no need to apologize. What is wrong with it? |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | Hamas's charter is to destroy jews & israel. It's in their written misison statement.
However in case one has forgotton, a few details seems to have been omitted:
1. Hamas's raison de'tre is to eliminate Israel
2. In case people haven't noticed Hamas is armed with serious weaponry
3. There are more tunnels & infrastucture to be uncovered. Their sole Hams et al are aiming for civilian hits as part of their raison d'etre but Israel fortunatlery has developed a 90% effective missile defence system that only covers major poulation & other areas not smaller towns & villages
If Israel wanted national suicide it should immediately sign on to Hamas's conditions.
De-militartize & Gaza can transform into a successful society. |
The bolded bit.
Israel is surrounded by muslims states who basically want every Jew to GTF out or die. There will be no peace no matter what Israel does unless they leave or the muslims decide to leave them alone.
There are people stupid enough to actually say that all Israel has to do is stop retaliating and there will be peace. Yup, that will work. 
You want peace in the gaza strip? Let Israel have it. |
When did a Muslim state last attack Israel? I know these things are relative, but apart from the odd war with Lebanon and Cold War with Iran, Israel has lived in peace with its neighbours for the last 20 years or so. Their only conflict of late has been with Palestinians. So I don't think what you're saying is actually relevant in 2014. |
Blinkers. Fkn Blinkers.
http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397 |
As if you don't have the blinkers on yourself! You're essentially taking Israel's side here. I might be much more heavily critical of Israel than Hamas, but I'm at least trying to be somewhat even-handed.
And I'm not sure how that document (Hamas charter?) relates to what I wrote.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Sun Jul 27, 2014 12:08 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| Mugwump wrote: | | They don't really do that self-aware, a-bit-to-be-said -on-both-sides thing, do they? What's most interesting and important is the role Rotary and Lions clubs apparently play in keeping Islam in subjection. Perhaps if we offer to send them the heads of a few car-dealers and small-business leaders from (say) Carnegie |
Why not? It would probably improve both places.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Morrigu wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: |
You still didn't answer the question !!
I aslo can't & won't defend 4 innocents being killed like that. It's awful. BTW one of their relatives went & berated hamas at the time - seen by a news crew.
Untrained terrorsits. Sorry that is seriously wrong. The borders have been porous under Morsi. Many Hamas fighters have trained abroad & brought with them expertise. These aren't a motley crew finding a slingshot, The miltary wing of Hamas is seriously well trained & disciplined. So too with other fanatics.
In don't condone the klilling of civilians either. |
What was the question
I wasn't suggesting that Hamas are not trained and armed - what I was saying is that the Israeli military are not a motley crew of untrained terrorists so making the mistake they made with those poor kids is unforgivable.
I know you don't - that is a given! |
^ cheers
My question was (lost the joke part now) are you a muslim or jewish protestant
Having said that I met an Irish kid once on a Kibbutz who as a teenager witnessed Bloody Sunday in 'Derry.
He had to leave because he was either too friendly with catholics or protestants I can't recall which. Was getting threats.
A lot of the younger folk here don't realize the awful conflict that used to exist between protestants & catholics & its impact on families & individuals.
Now at least we've got scientology & the petacostalists to blame.
An ex girlfriend's aunt changed to C/E because she coudn't kneel any longer in catholic church due to her arthrtits. !! As good a reason as any I suppose.
Having said that, the man in charge of funerals at the local orthodox funeral arrangers for my late maternal grandmother wearing the whole black outfit with beard was well qualified & had volumes of books on Geneaology of Jews througout the world. Lovely man. I asked him what particular Jewsih denomination he was from so to speak.
He told me C of E.
Turns out he was from Wagga & converted !!
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: |
As if you don't have the blinkers on yourself! You're essentially taking Israel's side here. I might be much more heavily critical of Israel than Hamas, but I'm at least trying to be somewhat even-handed.
And I'm not sure how that document (Hamas charter?) relates to what I wrote. |
You absolute dickhead. Everything is all about Palestine and not about Islam, and yet the indisputable fact that Hamas is an islamic organisation just slides past you?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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And the President of the USA is a Christian, as are all the other office holders there. It's even a fair bet that some of the Israelis are Jewish, though of course I'm only guessing that last bit.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Let's backtrack a little (and personal abuse really isn't warrantedcan't we debate this issue without that? I don't recall any time I've insulted you).
| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Israel is surrounded by muslims states who basically want every Jew to GTF out or die. There will be no peace no matter what Israel does unless they leave or the muslims decide to leave them alone. |
When did a Muslim state last attack Israel? I know these things are relative, but apart from the odd war with Lebanon and Cold War with Iran, Israel has lived in peace with its neighbours for the last 20 years or so. Their only conflict of late has been with Palestinians. So I don't think what you're saying is actually relevant in 2014. |
And then you proceed to link to a Hamas document.
My point is that, despite what you said above, the Muslim nation states that surround Israel (of which Palestine clearly isn't one, as much as they'd like to be) have lived in comparative peace with them for quite a while now, despite the odd conflict. This is important because, despite their military capacity, Israel is often seen as (and like to see themselves as) a tiny little country surrounded by hostile enemies trying to invade it. That was the case in 1948 and 1967, but I'm not sure you can really say it's the case in 2014. Nowadays, the main conflict seems to be between the tiny country of Israel and the even tinier Palestinian territories that lie within its 1967 borders. There, it's quite clear who the stronger power is.
As for religion, it clearly plays a strong role in these conflicts, but this one is far more complex than simply Jews vs Muslims. Nationalism, borders, basic living conditions, memories of previous conflicts... all of these things play significant roles.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/26/israel-gaza-war-self-defeating-less-not-more-secure
| Quote: | I know that every one of those points can be challenged. The point is not that they represent unarguable truth but that they come close to how many not all Israelis feel. They believe they face in Hamas an enemy that is both explicitly committed by charter to Israels eradication, and cavalier about the safety of the Palestinian people it rules. They fear Hamas, its tunnels and its rockets, and they want security.
But here is where the madness kicks in. Israelis want security, yet their governments actions will give it no security. On the contrary, they are utterly self-defeating.
Thats true on the baldest possible measure. More Israelis have died in the operation to tackle the Hamas threat than have died from the Hamas threat, at least over the past five years. Put another way, to address the risk that hypothetical Israeli soldiers might be kidnapped, 33 actual Israeli soldiers have died. Never before have international airlines suspended flights into Israels national airport. But they did this week, a move that struck a neuralgic spot in the Israeli psyche: if disaster struck, thered be no escape. (Thats long been true of Gaza, of course.)
Before the current round of violence, the West Bank had been relatively quiet for years. Friday saw a day of rage, with several Palestinians killed and talk of a third intifada. An operation designed to make Israel more secure has made it much less. |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jul/26/israel-gaza-war-self-defeating-less-not-more-secure
....... |
[/quote]
Good article. The two paragraphs preceding it were useful too.
"This is why they wanted their government to hit back hard: remember, it was the discovery of the tunnels that prompted the ground offensive. Some Israelis see the terrible images of Palestinian suffering children losing their limbs, their lives or their parents and they want the world to see it as they do: that Hamas shares in the blame for those cruel deaths, because it does so little to protect its civilians.
You might discount the argument that Hamas fights its war from civilian areas (replying that its hardly going to locate itself in open ground, wearing a target on its back). But the UN itself has condemned Hamas for stashing rockets in a UN school. And in the quiet years, when Hamas finally got hold of long-demanded concrete, it used it not to build bomb shelters for ordinary Gazans, but those tunnels to attack Israel, and bunkers for the organisations top brass".
Yeah the UN condemned it & promtly called Hamas to collect the rockets!!
Oh boys, you left your play things behind. Pease tidy up as you go
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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