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Joel 
Joined: 23 Mar 1999
Location: Mornington Peninsula
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: |
Civilian deaths are civilian deaths as far as I'm concerned. The fact that some are playing in their backyards as opposed to taking an international trip is irrelevant. One murder (yes, murderif it's good enough for MH17 it's good enough for this) deserves just as much consternation as the other. |
Dude, if you can't see a clear and defined difference between the two situations then there is no point even discussing the point with you. |
There is a clear difference. One was an accident, a horrible tragedy that no one intended. The other is a calculated killing of civilians for who knows what end, as a response to mostly ineffectual rocket attacks. It's abundantly clear to me which is the greater wrong. |
1. An accident? You know details we don't know?
2. Neither is worse than the other. There is no "greater wrong" in the death of any innocents.
3. "Ineffectual rocket attacks". Imagine if NZ started shooting missiles at Australia. You reckon we'd just sit here and say, "it's okay, they are mostly ineffectual rocket attacks"? Nah, we'd respond.
Last edited by Joel on Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:38 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Hamas' own peace proposal offered to Israel included the following:
>lifting the siege of Gaza
>economic development of the territory
>UN supervision of borders, crossings, the airport and seaport
>easing conditions for permits to pray at Jerusalem's Al Aqsa mosque
>respect for the national reconciliation deal
>and the freeing of Palestinians detained since the abduction and killing of three Israeli teenagers last month
Not exactly unreasonable, but Israel refused and chose to invade:
http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2014/07/israel-ceasefire-escalate-war-2014719173840867406.html |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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I can't understand why both sides can't just sit down, discuss the issue and come to a unanimous agreement.
.............. works here 
Yes yes I know this is merely an internet discussion board - but it illustrates how difficult it is for humans to come to an understanding and ultimately an agreement that works for all the people when the thoughts, beliefs and demands of those charged with this task are so contrasting!
And meanwhile far too many innocent people around the globe continue to die or be horrifically injured in the name of " the cause" 
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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As for human shields...
Israel-Gaza conflict: The myth of Hamass human shields
>"The Bani Sobeila area, near Khan Younis, where the Abu Jamaa deaths took place received leaflets dropped from the air last week warning them to leave."
>"But almost all stayed. One reason for that was many of the houses belonged to the Abu Jamaa clan who felt there was safety in staying together. Another reason was given by a neighbour, Abdullah al-Daweish: 'Where do we go to? Some people moved from the outer edge of Khan Younis to Khan Younis centre after Israelis told them to, then the centre got bombed. People have moved from this area to Gaza City, and Gaza City has been bombed. Its not Hamas who is ordering us in this, its the Israelis.'"
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israelgaza-conflict-the-myth-of-hamass-human-shield-9619810.html |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Morrigu wrote: | I can't understand why both sides can't just sit down, discuss the issue and come to a unanimous agreement.
( |
Muslim vs Jew, Catholic vs protestant, all should be easy ay?
Far K I'm glad i live in a country where no one gives a far K what religion you are
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| stui magpie wrote: | | Morrigu wrote: | I can't understand why both sides can't just sit down, discuss the issue and come to a unanimous agreement.
( |
Muslim vs Jew, Catholic vs protestant, all should be easy ay?
Far K I'm glad i live in a country where no one gives a far K what religion you are |
Yeah and let's hope it stays that bloody way!
A lot of my family who live in Eire still do not recognise that I am married ( only been 25 odd years  ) because I married a heathen Scot and was not married in the Mick church - never mind that I am an atheist - that conservation is fingers in the ears la la la la la 
Makes you appreciate ( even it is barmy) why resolutions when religion/ cultural beliefs are involved are so difficult!
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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Hamas's charter is to destroy jews & israel. It's in their written misison statement.
However in case one has forgotton, a few details seems to have been omitted:
1. Hamas's raison de'tre is to eliminate Israel
2. In case people haven't noticed Hamas is armed with serious weaponry
3. There are more tunnels & infrastucture to be uncovered. The sole purpose of the tunnels & missiles in Gaza is to harm indiscriminately
4. It wasn't that long ago that thousands of Isrelis' died through suicide bombing etc via Hamas.
5. That is why their is restrivice movement in Gaza, & the sea.
6. We vnow see that cement that was banned by israel has been used to build tunnels
7. Israel fortunately has developed a 90% effective missile defence system that only covers major population & other areas not smaller towns & villages
If Israel wanted national suicide it should immediately sign on to Hamas's conditions.
De-militartize & Gaza can transform into a successful society.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Morrigu wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Morrigu wrote: | I can't understand why both sides can't just sit down, discuss the issue and come to a unanimous agreement.
( |
Muslim vs Jew, Catholic vs protestant, all should be easy ay?
Far K I'm glad i live in a country where no one gives a far K what religion you are |
Yeah and let's hope it stays that bloody way!
A lot of my family who live in Eire still do not recognise that I am married ( only been 25 odd years ) because I married a heathen Scot and was not married in the Mick church - never mind that I am an atheist - that conservation is fingers in the ears la la la la la
Makes you appreciate ( even it is barmy) why resolutions when religion/ cultural beliefs are involved are so difficult! |
Yes but are you a Jewish or Muslim aethieist?
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| watt price tully wrote: | Hamas's charter is to destroy jews & israel. It's in their written misison statement.
However in case one has forgotton, a few details seems to have been omitted:
1. Hamas's raison de'tre is to eliminate Israel
2. In case people haven't noticed Hamas is armed with serious weaponry
3. There are more tunnels & infrastucture to be uncovered. Their sole Hams et al are aiming for civilian hits as part of their raison d'etre but Israel fortunatlery has developed a 90% effective missile defence system that only covers major poulation & other areas not smaller towns & villages
If Israel wanted national suicide it should immediately sign on to Hamas's conditions.
De-militartize & Gaza can transform into a successful society. |
The bolded bit.
Israel is surrounded by muslims states who basically want every Jew to GTF out or die. There will be no peace no matter what Israel does unless they leave or the muslims decide to leave them alone.
There are people stupid enough to actually say that all Israel has to do is stop retaliating and there will be peace. Yup, that will work.
You want peace in the gaza strip? Let Israel have it.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| watt price tully wrote: | Hamas's charter is to destroy jews & israel. It's in their written misison statement.
However in case one has forgotton, a few details seems to have been omitted:
1. Hamas's raison de'tre is to eliminate Israel
2. In case people haven't noticed Hamas is armed with serious weaponry
3. There are more tunnels & infrastucture to be uncovered. The sole purpose of the tunnels & missiles in Gaza is to harm indiscriminately
4. It wasn't that long ago that thousands of Isrelis' died through suicide bombing etc via Hamas.
5. That is why their is restrivice movement in Gaza, & the sea.
6. We vnow see that cement that was banned by israel has been used to build tunnels
7. Israel fortunately has developed a 90% effective missile defence system that only covers major population & other areas not smaller towns & villages
If Israel wanted national suicide it should immediately sign on to Hamas's conditions.
De-militartize & Gaza can transform into a successful society. |
If you want to make Hamas stronger, then by all means continue to defend Israeli siege, military strikes and other acts aimed at blocking a two-state solution. Hardship tends to breed extremism.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | Hamas's charter is to destroy jews & israel. It's in their written misison statement.
However in case one has forgotton, a few details seems to have been omitted:
1. Hamas's raison de'tre is to eliminate Israel
2. In case people haven't noticed Hamas is armed with serious weaponry
3. There are more tunnels & infrastucture to be uncovered. Their sole Hams et al are aiming for civilian hits as part of their raison d'etre but Israel fortunatlery has developed a 90% effective missile defence system that only covers major poulation & other areas not smaller towns & villages
If Israel wanted national suicide it should immediately sign on to Hamas's conditions.
De-militartize & Gaza can transform into a successful society. |
The bolded bit.
Israel is surrounded by muslims states who basically want every Jew to GTF out or die. There will be no peace no matter what Israel does unless they leave or the muslims decide to leave them alone.
There are people stupid enough to actually say that all Israel has to do is stop retaliating and there will be peace. Yup, that will work.
You want peace in the gaza strip? Let Israel have it. |
When did a Muslim state last attack Israel? I know these things are relative, but apart from the odd war with Lebanon and Cold War with Iran, Israel has lived in peace with its neighbours for the last 20 years or so. Their only conflict of late has been with Palestinians. So I don't think what you're saying is actually relevant in 2014.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Morrigu
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| watt price tully wrote: | | Yes but are you a Jewish or Muslim aethieist? |
I don't discriminate WPT I treat all religious doctrine as a fairy tale!
Apart from two branches - one being my mum and her siblings who came to Aus and another who went to America all of my family live in Eire.
When I was younger I got sucked in and I believed with every breath in my body the propaganda and supported the IRA - the cause seemed worthy and I lost family and friends - but the cause seemed worthy!
Now I realise the futility and just want to see an end to the horrific suffering - you and I both know dying would be the better outcome for many - the physical and psychological trauma.
I think the Israeli response is just way over the top - one example - 4 kids on a beach - sorry I can see no defence for that - this is not a second rate motley crew of untrained terrorists.
I have no interest in sides - simplistic as it is I just want the killing to stop
_________________
“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | Hamas's charter is to destroy jews & israel. It's in their written misison statement.
However in case one has forgotton, a few details seems to have been omitted:
1. Hamas's raison de'tre is to eliminate Israel
2. In case people haven't noticed Hamas is armed with serious weaponry
3. There are more tunnels & infrastucture to be uncovered. Their sole Hams et al are aiming for civilian hits as part of their raison d'etre but Israel fortunatlery has developed a 90% effective missile defence system that only covers major poulation & other areas not smaller towns & villages
If Israel wanted national suicide it should immediately sign on to Hamas's conditions.
De-militartize & Gaza can transform into a successful society. |
The bolded bit.
Israel is surrounded by muslims states who basically want every Jew to GTF out or die. There will be no peace no matter what Israel does unless they leave or the muslims decide to leave them alone.
There are people stupid enough to actually say that all Israel has to do is stop retaliating and there will be peace. Yup, that will work.
You want peace in the gaza strip? Let Israel have it. |
When did a Muslim state last attack Israel? I know these things are relative, but apart from the odd war with Lebanon and Cold War with Iran, Israel has lived in peace with its neighbours for the last 20 years or so. Their only conflict of late has been with Palestinians. So I don't think what you're saying is actually relevant in 2014. |
Blinkers. Fkn Blinkers.
http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html?chocaid=397
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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David, you're right, but the genral point that Israel is never free from low-level attacks is a valid one, and ceding territory -even when it is Palestinian territory morally, as it is in Gaza - seems to make it worse, if anything. Israel does seem to be in a no-win situation, and it's fair to acknowledge that.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Joel
Joined: 23 Mar 1999
Location: Mornington Peninsula
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | Hamas's charter is to destroy jews & israel. It's in their written misison statement.
However in case one has forgotton, a few details seems to have been omitted:
1. Hamas's raison de'tre is to eliminate Israel
2. In case people haven't noticed Hamas is armed with serious weaponry
3. There are more tunnels & infrastucture to be uncovered. Their sole Hams et al are aiming for civilian hits as part of their raison d'etre but Israel fortunatlery has developed a 90% effective missile defence system that only covers major poulation & other areas not smaller towns & villages
If Israel wanted national suicide it should immediately sign on to Hamas's conditions.
De-militartize & Gaza can transform into a successful society. |
The bolded bit.
Israel is surrounded by muslims states who basically want every Jew to GTF out or die. There will be no peace no matter what Israel does unless they leave or the muslims decide to leave them alone.
There are people stupid enough to actually say that all Israel has to do is stop retaliating and there will be peace. Yup, that will work.
You want peace in the gaza strip? Let Israel have it. |
When did a Muslim state last attack Israel? I know these things are relative, but apart from the odd war with Lebanon and Cold War with Iran, Israel has lived in peace with its neighbours for the last 20 years or so. Their only conflict of late has been with Palestinians. So I don't think what you're saying is actually relevant in 2014. |
Yeah because wars have never been fought via proxy entities.
Last edited by Joel on Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:25 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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