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Israeli/Palestinian conflict: will it ever end?

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:57 pm
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^ I think that's at least as jaundiced a view as that of some on the "anti-Zionist" side. Personally, I suspect there's a bit more at stake for Palestinians than what bleeding hearts in American and European living rooms think.
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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:06 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
Plenty of other places agree. You break into a house in some USA states the home owner can legally kill you regardless of what weapons you carry, if any.

Following the term "plenty" with reference to that regressive, violent gun state surely only weakens your argument.

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pietillidie 



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:16 pm
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David wrote:
^ I think that's at least as jaundiced a view as that of some on the "anti-Zionist" side. Personally, I suspect there's a bit more at stake for Palestinians than what bleeding hearts in American and European living rooms think.

But that requires complicating things by "humanizing" Palestinians, David, and that is against the laws of Islamophobia.

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stui magpie Gemini

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:23 pm
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David wrote:
^ I think that's at least as jaundiced a view as that of some on the "anti-Zionist" side. Personally, I suspect there's a bit more at stake for Palestinians than what bleeding hearts in American and European living rooms think.


I'm sure they have more at stake, I'm not suggesting that's their end game just a means to an end.

Jaundiced? Absolutely.

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sixpoints 



Joined: 27 Sep 2010
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:48 pm
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No.
Any notion that one side in a conflict is purposefully sacrificing the death of individuals for their overall goal is nonsense. That paradigm has been tried for centuries, but always fails in investigation.
What is happening is that one side in a conflict is clearly killing more than the other side. The side doing the most killing has to stop.
Don't insult anyone with the real politik of the day. It's all been seen before. The issue is that the biggest killers need to stop and then we can discuss resolution.
Stop killing and talk.
However those doing the most killing must desist immediately.
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1061 



Joined: 06 Sep 2013


PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:52 pm
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sixpoints wrote:

What is happening is that one side in a conflict is clearly killing more than the other side. The side doing the most killing has to stop. so the other can catch up and even things up?
Don't insult anyone with the real politik of the day. It's all been seen before. The issue is that the biggest killers need to stop and then we can discuss resolution. so the other can catch up and even things up?
Stop killing and talk. both sides or just the one who kills the most?
However those doing the most killing must desist immediately.so the other can catch up and even things up?



Fixed!
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sixpoints 



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:05 pm
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1061 wrote:
sixpoints wrote:

What is happening is that one side in a conflict is clearly killing more than the other side. The side doing the most killing has to stop. so the other can catch up and even things up?
Don't insult anyone with the real politik of the day. It's all been seen before. The issue is that the biggest killers need to stop and then we can discuss resolution. so the other can catch up and even things up?
Stop killing and talk. both sides or just the one who kills the most?
However those doing the most killing must desist immediately.so the other can catch up and even things up?



Fixed!


No!
The killing must stop. Those killing the most, must take responsibity and stop. I'm not talking accepting blame or guilt. I'm talking that all historical intransigent conflicts that all seem ridiculous now are all over because the killing stops.
Do you think that WW1 or WW2 were incapable of being ended? They were inherently more complex than any conflict today.
So....stop killing.
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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:07 pm
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sixpoints wrote:
No.
Any notion that one side in a conflict is purposefully sacrificing the death of individuals for their overall goal is nonsense. That paradigm has been tried for centuries, but always fails in investigation.
What is happening is that one side in a conflict is clearly killing more than the other side. The side doing the most killing has to stop.
Don't insult anyone with the real politik of the day. It's all been seen before. The issue is that the biggest killers need to stop and then we can discuss resolution.
Stop killing and talk.
However those doing the most killing must desist immediately.


So your solution is that Israel should stop retaliating and just let Hamas fire rockets at them. And then what?

And the notion that someone in charge will sacrifice the death of individuals to gain a greater victory is as old as warfare. Ever heard of a pawn in a game of chess? That is not a difficult notion.

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sixpoints 



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 9:24 pm
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I get you. But I don't think you get me.
You reply immediately that one side can't give ground over the other etc etc. This impasse will end.
They all eventually do. Bitter national enemies often end being allies.
You offer nothing except one 'side' has legitimacy over another.
Stop killing and talk.
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AN_Inkling 



Joined: 06 Oct 2007


PostPosted: Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:41 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
sixpoints wrote:
No.
Any notion that one side in a conflict is purposefully sacrificing the death of individuals for their overall goal is nonsense. That paradigm has been tried for centuries, but always fails in investigation.
What is happening is that one side in a conflict is clearly killing more than the other side. The side doing the most killing has to stop.
Don't insult anyone with the real politik of the day. It's all been seen before. The issue is that the biggest killers need to stop and then we can discuss resolution.
Stop killing and talk.
However those doing the most killing must desist immediately.


So your solution is that Israel should stop retaliating and just let Hamas fire rockets at them. And then what?


Give the man a Nobel Peace prize. And then what? The killing stops, on both sides. The Hamas rockets were killing no one. Since the Israeli attacks the number of rockets fired has increased and the number of Israeli deaths has also increased.

The solution that Israel have gone for is clearly counterproductive. In what way does killing over 600 civilians make Israel a safer place? Unless you go for complete genocide (or near to) killing civilians is not the answer, it clearly just breeds more hatred. And in this case that hatred would be fully justified, not the usual brainwashing. Sure, there may be nuanced arguments to justify Israel's actions, and to place most of the blame onto Hamas, but nuance doesn't cut it when your children are being slaughtered and hospitals and refugee camps bombed.

Almost 50% of the Palestinian population is under 15. What effect do you think these attacks will have on them? Try to think back to when you were 15 and how you might have reacted. The only way out of this for Israel has always been to be as benevolent as they could possibly manage to the Palestinian citizens and refuse to use them as collateral. Condemning any Hamas attacks and doing all they could to stop them, but refusing any actions that could result in significant civilian casualties. Hamas is a terrorist organisation? Make that clear by rising above their tactics, not dropping down to their level. Then maybe more of those young Palestinians could actually make the distinction. This is obviously simplistic and I'm sure you'll say it's unworkable, but I'm convinced the only way for lasting peace is a sustained campaign of positive propaganda from the Israeli side.

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1061 



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:45 am
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:21 am
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^ Yes, that is a cartoon effectively representing the Israeli government's propaganda. Perhaps if we want to make things a little more realistic we might give the Palestinian soldier a slingshot.
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1061 



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:31 am
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I'd actually improve the Israeli soldiers weapons but you see the Hamas terrorists as down trodden freedom fighters so lets agree to disagree on that cartoon.

The little we see from the few reports not focusing on the headline grabbing "women and children killed" seem to substantiate Hamas is firing from Schools, Private Homes and even Hospitals and Israel is shooting back hard.

Just on Hamas why aren't they called Palestinian Armed Forces like every other Countries armed forces?
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David Libra

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:39 am
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^ Because Palestine isn't a country.
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HAL 

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Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:42 am
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What you said was too complicated for me.
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