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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^If I may interrupt, as I've been saying, I think the incorporation of the historical background puts both the anti-Semitism and Islamophobia into a single model which explains a lot of things still today.
Historically, you had horrific European anti-Semitism being resolved by callous Western imperialist imposts on peoples considered even lower than Jews.
Hence you get people who would normally be anti-Semites in everyday life supporting Israel on the sick basis of an even greater hatred of Islamic peoples.
This might then explain why in fact both parties are victims, and both have legitimate mortal fears. I also wonder if it points to the solution, namely the need for an examination of virulent Western racism in causing and now maintaining the insoluble violent chaos.
Of course, far-right exceptionalists all round will hate this approach because the one thing their psychiatries can't stand is being considered an equal human to the "evildoer" when they're so obviously "superior".
(Good observation from Wokko about Palestinians being Semites; just another pitiful irony, of course).
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| David wrote: | I just can't believe how selective our outrage is. 300 ordinary people including a few Australians get gunned down in a military accident (or "murder", or whatever, I'm not going to argue that point) and the world is justifiably outraged. Abbott and Bishop can't get enough of it. 850 massacred in Palestine and all we get are excuses and a few polite suggestions from the foreign ministry.
I really am coming to the conclusion that people here have a hard time thinking of dark-skinned Muslims in foreign lands as human beings. Perhaps no-one ever really gave a shit about Rwanda either. |
Ahem David.
1. Firstly and again no civilian ought to die.
2. Amongst your number however are over 300 hamas fighters.
But don't let a few details get in the way.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | haysoos H christ on a unicycle, David you have lost the plot.  |
In which way? By suggesting that people here care less about Gazans than Europeans because they just don't identify with them in any way (ethnically, linguistically or culturally)? It may be an uncomfortable suggestion, but hardly one at odds with general human psychology.
If I'm right, the question becomes how to override those impulses. Because you can be sure that those biases, if they exist (which they almost certainly do), are at least partially dictating our foreign policy. They almost certainly have tangible, real world effects.
I'm happy to hear your argument against this. |
Comparing a plane load of civilians being blown out of the sky to the conflict in Gaza is ridiculous. And if you want to throw supporters of Israel under the bus of islamaphobia I hope your happy to have the anti semite tag go the other way? |
Civilian deaths are civilian deaths as far as I'm concerned. The fact that some are playing in their backyards as opposed to taking an international trip is irrelevant. One murder (yes, murderif it's good enough for MH17 it's good enough for this) deserves just as much consternation as the other.
As for calling supporters of Israel 'Islamophobes' (have I ever even used this term?), that's a misrepresentation of my position. I am not even an opponent of Israel. I believe that it has a right to exist and a right to defend itself against serious threats. I am, however, an opponent of its current government and its military policy, and I hope that there are other supporters of Israel who share my horror.
This gets back to the point I was trying to make: if you're not horrified by the deaths of nearly 1000 civilians, what's wrong with you? Does the fact that it's happened before make it less disturbing? That one side 'started it'? Or is it just the fact that it's a conflict that Australia isn't directly involved in?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Sat Jul 26, 2014 2:58 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| pietillidie wrote: | ^If I may interrupt, as I've been saying, I think the incorporation of the historical background puts both the anti-Semitism and Islamophobia into a single model which explains a lot of things still today.
Historically, you had horrific European anti-Semitism being resolved by callous Western imperialist imposts on peoples considered even lower than Jews.
Hence you get people who would normally be anti-Semites in everyday life supporting Israel on the sick basis of an even greater hatred of Islamic peoples.
This might then explain why in fact both parties are victims, and both have legitimate mortal fears. I also wonder if it points to the solution, namely the need for an examination of virulent Western racism in causing and now maintaining the insoluble violent chaos.
Of course, far-right exceptionalists all round will hate this approach because the one thing their psychiatries can't stand is being considered an equal human to the "evildoer" when they're so obviously "superior".
(Good observation from Wokko about Palestinians being Semites; just another pitiful irony, of course). |
With respect PTID: Wokko's explanation is simply a diversion. We know what is meant by the term anti semite. It's only the far right most of the time that uses this term & Wokko is well acquainted with their world view. The far left tries to use the same nonsense at times . Of course most Arabs are semites however when we use the term we all know what we mean. Arab anti semitism against Jews well before Gaza is a horrendous problem. They made a f*cking TV serial based on the "Protocol of the elders of Zion" FFS that was shown through the entire Arab world. Thankfully & even Hanan Ashrawi condemns it albeit hardly at all.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^No argument from me, I was just pointing to the human irony as I side note. (The first thing I learned when I studied Classical Hebrew was its position in the broader scheme of Semitic languages).
What about my argument?
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| 1061 wrote: | | David wrote: | | ^ Because Palestine isn't a country. |
Then why is everyone talking about Palestinians? |
The abridged version is this:
1. 1947/48: UN declared in a small strip of land a place for Israel & a place for a Palestinian state.
2. THis could have been achieved however Arab countries & nationalists rejected this.
3. There was armed fighting going on.
4. The Arabs started a war.
5. They lost ( they stated a few more & lost those too).
6. In wars people get displaced.
7. In the 1948 war stated by Arab armies, Arab (Palestinian) civilians were displaced: some through their own volition, some through being told to by Arabs armies & local Arab militia & the majority through israeli / jewish coercion in a time of an existential war for Israeli jews.
8. Egypt had entire control of gaza from 1948 - 1967
Bottom line: Both Arabs & Jews created a mess there. Civilians especially Palestinian civilians were let down by their Arab leaders & by Israeli leaders.
_________________
“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Half a dozen. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: |
Civilian deaths are civilian deaths as far as I'm concerned. The fact that some are playing in their backyards as opposed to taking an international trip is irrelevant. One murder (yes, murderif it's good enough for MH17 it's good enough for this) deserves just as much consternation as the other. |
Dude, if you can't see a clear and defined difference between the two situations then there is no point even discussing the point with you.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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AN_Inkling
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: |
Civilian deaths are civilian deaths as far as I'm concerned. The fact that some are playing in their backyards as opposed to taking an international trip is irrelevant. One murder (yes, murderif it's good enough for MH17 it's good enough for this) deserves just as much consternation as the other. |
Dude, if you can't see a clear and defined difference between the two situations then there is no point even discussing the point with you. |
There is a clear difference. One was an accident, a horrible tragedy that no one intended. The other is a calculated killing of civilians for who knows what end, as a response to mostly ineffectual rocket attacks. It's abundantly clear to me which is the greater wrong.
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Well done boys! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: |
Civilian deaths are civilian deaths as far as I'm concerned. The fact that some are playing in their backyards as opposed to taking an international trip is irrelevant. One murder (yes, murderif it's good enough for MH17 it's good enough for this) deserves just as much consternation as the other. |
Dude, if you can't see a clear and defined difference between the two situations then there is no point even discussing the point with you. |
I don't know why we always reach this impasse when it comes to comparisons. You can say that my analogy is stretched, sure, but to say that there's "a clear difference" is pointless. Of course there are clear differences in terms of context, motivations, combatants and so on. There always are in all situations. But there are also obvious comparisons to be made, the most salient of which is that hundreds of civilians are being accidentally (but far from unavoidably) killed as an act of war.
An analogy is not the same as an equivalence.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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It's a crap analogy, that's why. You might as well compare it to a car accident or getting eaten by a shark. People are dead, ergo it's the same thing.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Civilians are dead because of negligent actions by militant forces trying to kill combatants. Hardly chalk and cheese.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Yep, gaza people are dead because Hamas is firing rockets into Israel.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: |
Civilian deaths are civilian deaths as far as I'm concerned. The fact that some are playing in their backyards as opposed to taking an international trip is irrelevant. One murder (yes, murderif it's good enough for MH17 it's good enough for this) deserves just as much consternation as the other. |
Dude, if you can't see a clear and defined difference between the two situations then there is no point even discussing the point with you. |
There is a clear difference. One was an accident, a horrible tragedy that no one intended. The other is a calculated killing of civilians for who knows what end, as a response to mostly ineffectual rocket attacks. It's abundantly clear to me which is the greater wrong. |
With respect there is no calculated killing of civilians. There is killing of civilians.
Ask yourself this:
In whose interests does the killing of civilians serve?
It obviously does not serve Israel's interests at all.
It does suit Hamas's interests (all of the time).
I also believe you seriously under-estimate the weapons that Hamas has & the damage it can do & has done.
Iron Dome while effective at 90% of the time is not installed everywhere.
The tunnels are much more massive than israeli intelligence thought.
(Hezbollah has much more sopshiticated tunnel development in South Lebanon & since they rid South Lebanon of Chrisitan communities their villages each have huge tunnels & weapons stored under the direction of the Iranian Revolutionay guards).
One can't talk about Gaza without also talking about an armed violent Hamas & Islamic Jihad. Isralis actioons of course bring them closer together.
If I were a leader in Israel I would agree to almost all of Hamas's demands on the condition that they allow an international force including observers & including Israeli observers to monitor disarmamant including searches of their weaponry, their infrastucture including tunnels & their incoming cargo.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: |
Civilian deaths are civilian deaths as far as I'm concerned. The fact that some are playing in their backyards as opposed to taking an international trip is irrelevant. One murder (yes, murderif it's good enough for MH17 it's good enough for this) deserves just as much consternation as the other. |
Dude, if you can't see a clear and defined difference between the two situations then there is no point even discussing the point with you. |
I don't know why we always reach this impasse when it comes to comparisons. You can say that my analogy is stretched, sure, but to say that there's "a clear difference" is pointless. Of course there are clear differences in terms of context, motivations, combatants and so on. There always are in all situations. But there are also obvious comparisons to be made, the most salient of which is that hundreds of civilians are being accidentally (but far from unavoidably) killed as an act of war.
An analogy is not the same as an equivalence. |
I think your premise is flawed, David. Was a civilian death from Allied shelling in Caen after the Normandy landings as unjustified as one in Gaza, or as one over Ukraine ? The context matters. That's not to defend Israel, which seems to me to be acting disproportionately and unconscionably - but then, if my country were being shelled at random with no end in sight, i might struggle to achieve proportionality as well. The really stupid thing is that the Israelis are playing into the hands of Hamas, long-term, by taking such disproportionate action.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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