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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 1:54 pm
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David wrote:
I think one important thing to remember with all supposedly "religious" conflicts is that religion is usually only ever part of the story. Politics, culture, nationalism, wealth and resources often play as big a role if not bigger. I'm not sure what the balance is here—ISIS claim to want to restore the caliphate, which is to an extent a fairly religious goal, but they're also fighting against Western political/cultural influence and oppressive military dictatorships.


hey, we agree one hundred percent! Shocked Laughing Wink

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:51 pm
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think positive wrote:
David wrote:
I think one important thing to remember with all supposedly "religious" conflicts is that religion is usually only ever part of the story. Politics, culture, nationalism, wealth and resources often play as big a role if not bigger. I'm not sure what the balance is here—ISIS claim to want to restore the caliphate, which is to an extent a fairly religious goal, but they're also fighting against Western political/cultural influence and oppressive military dictatorships.


hey, we agree one hundred percent! Shocked Laughing Wink


I don't agree, those fkn nutjobs are killing everyone who isn't in their particular branch of Islam, (they've killed more muslims than Richard the Lionheart and both George Bush's combined) their goal is to first bring back the caliphate and then extend that to the whole world being subject to Sharia law.

" also fighting against Western political/cultural influence and oppressive military dictatorships." my white arse, trying to defend the indefensible because they might be sticking it to the man is utter Bullshit.

These fucknuts are dangerous, deluded and organised which is a scary combination

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Culprit Cancer



Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:20 pm
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The coalition of the unwilling will have ground troops soon enough. Another 10 years of occupation will see the same snake but with a different head.
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:46 pm
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stui magpie wrote:
think positive wrote:
David wrote:
I think one important thing to remember with all supposedly "religious" conflicts is that religion is usually only ever part of the story. Politics, culture, nationalism, wealth and resources often play as big a role if not bigger. I'm not sure what the balance is here—ISIS claim to want to restore the caliphate, which is to an extent a fairly religious goal, but they're also fighting against Western political/cultural influence and oppressive military dictatorships.


hey, we agree one hundred percent! Shocked Laughing Wink


I don't agree, those fkn nutjobs are killing everyone who isn't in their particular branch of Islam, (they've killed more muslims than Richard the Lionheart and both George Bush's combined) their goal is to first bring back the caliphate and then extend that to the whole world being subject to Sharia law.

" also fighting against Western political/cultural influence and oppressive military dictatorships." my white arse, trying to defend the indefensible because they might be sticking it to the man is utter Bullshit.

These fucknuts are dangerous, deluded and organised which is a scary combination


Not sure why you think I disagree with you on the last point. You seriously think I'm on their side, even vaguely? Just pointing out that their motivations are complex, as are everyone's.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


Joined: 03 May 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 7:57 pm
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The way i read your comment was that they may be doing all sorts of bad stuff, but they're "also fighting against Western political/cultural" etc etc

To me, that reads as apologist not that their motives are complex.

Personally, I think their motives are simple and the solution is just as simple.

They want total control, they need to be eradicated like you'd exterminate a nest of wasps.

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:13 pm
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I don't think anything is ever simple, and I have to say I do find your proposed solution—total annihilation?—a little alarming. This group is genuinely terrifying, but they're still human beings, at least some of which may be impressionable teenagers or easily brainwashed. If you believe criminals can be rehabilitated here, why not militant Islamists? I have no doubt that there will need to be a battle and that will involve killing, but that doesn't mean we should abandon all trace of humanity ourselves. Life is not a Bruce Willis film.

It's also interesting that you read my suggestion as an apologia, when really it's a common fixation for all Islamic fundamentalists. The fact that they're dangerous and frightening doesn't mean we should caricature them.

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stui magpie Gemini

Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 10:47 pm
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^

I prefer Rambo to bwuce.

And I don't give a fat rats clacker if they're human beings. They're meat sacks with a malfunctioning central processor. I'd have the same amount of regret exterminating them as I would a wasps nest or rats. Zero.

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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2014 11:01 pm
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Oh no no no no no brucey baby all the way! Ripped singlet, cut near the eye, hmmmmmmm

And actually I meant that religion is just an excuse for the thing they are really fighting for, be it power, oil, more space or to feel as if they have the bigger dick!

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Tannin Capricorn

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Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:14 am
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Steady on, Stui. I rather like rats.
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HAL 

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Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 12:18 am
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You like rats.
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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 3:14 am
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stui magpie wrote:
^And I don't give a fat rats clacker if they're human beings. They're meat sacks with a malfunctioning central processor. I'd have the same amount of regret exterminating them as I would a wasps nest or rats. Zero.

Again, mate, your "they" is not likely to be a neat collective of TV villains, and not likely to be able to be removed with any sort of precision. We've heard these stories and seen their aftermath often enough to be responsibly cautious, surely. You're reacting to literary types tenth hand.

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Mugwump 



Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne

PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:41 am
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David wrote:
I don't think anything is ever simple, and I have to say I do find your proposed solution—total annihilation?—a little alarming. This group is genuinely terrifying, but they're still human beings, at least some of which may be impressionable teenagers or easily brainwashed.


In a sense, I'm not sure their motivation matters, any more than the motivation of the Khmer Rouge or the SS at Oradour-sur-Glane mattered. Their cause is imperialist and totalist, and their methods are evil. To that extent, we must hope for their defeat, and welcome their elimination by any means. Whether the Western powers should act for their defeat, though, and how, is a question which demands very careful analysis and debate.

Is an intervention by us likely to make matters better, or worse ? Will this hellish flame burn itself out, or will it take over much of the middle east and export war and terror more broadly ? Is there any moral basis for humanitarian intervention when we are not ourselves attacked ? When does a disturbance in the international order justify our intervention ? Is it possible that ISIL want us more involved, because our involvement will be a recuiting sergeant for them? Their disgusting snuff movies seem calculated to make us act against them, after all.

Just because we find these homicidal psychopaths revolting, we should not succumb to the illusion that we can make it any better. Some things on earth cannot be fixed with more young Western soldiers' lives. Perhaps the best thing we can do is leave the regional powers to sort this out. If we stay out of it, I suspect they will. However, it will be unbearably ugly to watch and we must guard against any security threats in our society that result.

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David Libra

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 1:59 pm
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As much as there might be intelligent arguments for and against greater US military involvement, I have to say I'm a little relieved that the Obama administration doesn't see "nuke everybody" as an ideal solution.
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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:09 pm
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David wrote:
As much as there might be intelligent arguments for and against greater US military involvement, I have to say I'm a little relieved that the Obama administration doesn't see "nuke everybody" as an ideal solution.


www.youtube.com/watch?v=izqgebEnZzY

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HAL 

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Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 4:13 pm
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Can we get back to business?
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