Iraq in ruins
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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David wrote: | I think one important thing to remember with all supposedly "religious" conflicts is that religion is usually only ever part of the story. Politics, culture, nationalism, wealth and resources often play as big a role if not bigger. I'm not sure what the balance is here—ISIS claim to want to restore the caliphate, which is to an extent a fairly religious goal, but they're also fighting against Western political/cultural influence and oppressive military dictatorships. |
hey, we agree one hundred percent! _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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think positive wrote: | David wrote: | I think one important thing to remember with all supposedly "religious" conflicts is that religion is usually only ever part of the story. Politics, culture, nationalism, wealth and resources often play as big a role if not bigger. I'm not sure what the balance is here—ISIS claim to want to restore the caliphate, which is to an extent a fairly religious goal, but they're also fighting against Western political/cultural influence and oppressive military dictatorships. |
hey, we agree one hundred percent! |
I don't agree, those fkn nutjobs are killing everyone who isn't in their particular branch of Islam, (they've killed more muslims than Richard the Lionheart and both George Bush's combined) their goal is to first bring back the caliphate and then extend that to the whole world being subject to Sharia law.
" also fighting against Western political/cultural influence and oppressive military dictatorships." my white arse, trying to defend the indefensible because they might be sticking it to the man is utter Bullshit.
These fucknuts are dangerous, deluded and organised which is a scary combination _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003 Location: Port Melbourne
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The coalition of the unwilling will have ground troops soon enough. Another 10 years of occupation will see the same snake but with a different head. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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stui magpie wrote: | think positive wrote: | David wrote: | I think one important thing to remember with all supposedly "religious" conflicts is that religion is usually only ever part of the story. Politics, culture, nationalism, wealth and resources often play as big a role if not bigger. I'm not sure what the balance is here—ISIS claim to want to restore the caliphate, which is to an extent a fairly religious goal, but they're also fighting against Western political/cultural influence and oppressive military dictatorships. |
hey, we agree one hundred percent! |
I don't agree, those fkn nutjobs are killing everyone who isn't in their particular branch of Islam, (they've killed more muslims than Richard the Lionheart and both George Bush's combined) their goal is to first bring back the caliphate and then extend that to the whole world being subject to Sharia law.
" also fighting against Western political/cultural influence and oppressive military dictatorships." my white arse, trying to defend the indefensible because they might be sticking it to the man is utter Bullshit.
These fucknuts are dangerous, deluded and organised which is a scary combination |
Not sure why you think I disagree with you on the last point. You seriously think I'm on their side, even vaguely? Just pointing out that their motivations are complex, as are everyone's. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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The way i read your comment was that they may be doing all sorts of bad stuff, but they're "also fighting against Western political/cultural" etc etc
To me, that reads as apologist not that their motives are complex.
Personally, I think their motives are simple and the solution is just as simple.
They want total control, they need to be eradicated like you'd exterminate a nest of wasps. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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I don't think anything is ever simple, and I have to say I do find your proposed solution—total annihilation?—a little alarming. This group is genuinely terrifying, but they're still human beings, at least some of which may be impressionable teenagers or easily brainwashed. If you believe criminals can be rehabilitated here, why not militant Islamists? I have no doubt that there will need to be a battle and that will involve killing, but that doesn't mean we should abandon all trace of humanity ourselves. Life is not a Bruce Willis film.
It's also interesting that you read my suggestion as an apologia, when really it's a common fixation for all Islamic fundamentalists. The fact that they're dangerous and frightening doesn't mean we should caricature them. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005 Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
I prefer Rambo to bwuce.
And I don't give a fat rats clacker if they're human beings. They're meat sacks with a malfunctioning central processor. I'd have the same amount of regret exterminating them as I would a wasps nest or rats. Zero. _________________ Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005 Location: somewhere
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Oh no no no no no brucey baby all the way! Ripped singlet, cut near the eye, hmmmmmmm
And actually I meant that religion is just an excuse for the thing they are really fighting for, be it power, oil, more space or to feel as if they have the bigger dick! _________________ You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006 Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Steady on, Stui. I rather like rats. _________________ �Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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You like rats. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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stui magpie wrote: | ^And I don't give a fat rats clacker if they're human beings. They're meat sacks with a malfunctioning central processor. I'd have the same amount of regret exterminating them as I would a wasps nest or rats. Zero. |
Again, mate, your "they" is not likely to be a neat collective of TV villains, and not likely to be able to be removed with any sort of precision. We've heard these stories and seen their aftermath often enough to be responsibly cautious, surely. You're reacting to literary types tenth hand. _________________ In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007 Location: Between London and Melbourne
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David wrote: | I don't think anything is ever simple, and I have to say I do find your proposed solution—total annihilation?—a little alarming. This group is genuinely terrifying, but they're still human beings, at least some of which may be impressionable teenagers or easily brainwashed. |
In a sense, I'm not sure their motivation matters, any more than the motivation of the Khmer Rouge or the SS at Oradour-sur-Glane mattered. Their cause is imperialist and totalist, and their methods are evil. To that extent, we must hope for their defeat, and welcome their elimination by any means. Whether the Western powers should act for their defeat, though, and how, is a question which demands very careful analysis and debate.
Is an intervention by us likely to make matters better, or worse ? Will this hellish flame burn itself out, or will it take over much of the middle east and export war and terror more broadly ? Is there any moral basis for humanitarian intervention when we are not ourselves attacked ? When does a disturbance in the international order justify our intervention ? Is it possible that ISIL want us more involved, because our involvement will be a recuiting sergeant for them? Their disgusting snuff movies seem calculated to make us act against them, after all.
Just because we find these homicidal psychopaths revolting, we should not succumb to the illusion that we can make it any better. Some things on earth cannot be fixed with more young Western soldiers' lives. Perhaps the best thing we can do is leave the regional powers to sort this out. If we stay out of it, I suspect they will. However, it will be unbearably ugly to watch and we must guard against any security threats in our society that result. _________________ Two more flags before I die! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003 Location: Andromeda
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As much as there might be intelligent arguments for and against greater US military involvement, I have to say I'm a little relieved that the Obama administration doesn't see "nuke everybody" as an ideal solution. _________________ All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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David wrote: | As much as there might be intelligent arguments for and against greater US military involvement, I have to say I'm a little relieved that the Obama administration doesn't see "nuke everybody" as an ideal solution. |
www.youtube.com/watch?v=izqgebEnZzY _________________ “I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough†Kinky Friedman |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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Can we get back to business? |
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