Iraq in ruins
Users browsing this topic:0 Registered, 0 Hidden and 0 Guests
Registered Users: None |
 |
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: |  |
|
| stui magpie wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | So, potentially saving what 2,000, 3,000 lives isn't enough for the US to get there hands dirty and do the honourable thing and put troops on the ground to ensure these peoples safety?
Not good enough Obama. |
Every time the US does put troops on the ground in another country they get hammered for it and called invaders. When they leave they get criticised for not doing enough while they were there.
Does the term "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sound familiar?
In this case, they are already IMO doing overs to help out. They have no skin in this game and aren't the world police. |
Big hands clapping
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
 |
swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
|
| Post subject: | |
|
The Iraq mess is pretty much of there making though, the justification to invade Iraq was based at worse on a fabricated lie at best woefully poor intelligence so now they just can't stand back now and wash there hands of it when the going gets tough in a situation that may require something more than a drone piloted back in the safety of the USA.
Given the tens of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed during there occupation I would have thought that the opportunity to safeguard the lives of thousands of innocent men, women and children fleeing the persecution of ISIS would have been a valuable PR exercise at the very least.
Then again they could just do it because it's the moral and right thing do.
P.S-The USA picks and chooses when to act like the world police now.
_________________
He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
|
|
|
|
1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| stui magpie wrote: |
Every time the US does put troops on the ground in another country they get hammered for it and called invaders. When they leave they get criticised for not doing enough while they were there.
Does the term "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sound familiar?
In this case, they are already IMO doing overs to help out. They have no skin in this game and aren't the world police. |
This is why I say the west should walk away, withdraw ALL support both military and humanitarian and anything in between and let them sort it out among themselves. |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
^ I just don't get why you think "the West's" reputation is more important than the lives of people dependent on humanitarian assistance.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | ^ I just don't get why you think "the West's" reputation is more important than the lives of people dependent on humanitarian assistance. |
It's not reputation so stop putting your OWN angle on it, your reputation >ego< may mean everything to you but this is more than ego.
We have spent so much on helping these "people" out so many times since WW2, now we should try a different approach and as you do with naughty kids. You ignore them, stop giving their fight oxygen aka publicity and once they realise we are no longer watching their crapfight they will soon run out of gas. |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Yeah but how many innocents will die first?
These are war crimes up there with the nazis and Japanese death camps, using children as human shields, killing and torturing their own for not quite seeing things their way.
Pure evil
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| 1061 wrote: | | David wrote: | | ^ I just don't get why you think "the West's" reputation is more important than the lives of people dependent on humanitarian assistance. |
It's not reputation so stop putting your OWN angle on it, your reputation >ego< may mean everything to you but this is more than ego.
We have spent so much on helping these "people" out so many times since WW2, now we should try a different approach and as you do with naughty kids. You ignore them, stop giving their fight oxygen aka publicity and once they realise we are no longer watching their crapfight they will soon run out of gas. |
You seem to be labouring under a range of misconceptions:
1) that the Middle East is some homogenous bloc (these "people"—in quotation marks, really?).
WRONG: the ISIS invasion of Iraq has little similarity with the Israeli bombardment of Gaza or even the fight by ISIS and pro-democracy protestors against Assad in Syria. These conflicts are waged in different environments with completely different dynamics between the combatants (or, in the case of Iraq, the invading forces and the civilians fleeing in terror).
2) that the history of Western intervention in the Middle East has been more help than hindrance, or, should I say, more help than wanton destruction.
WRONG: the West has created the conditions for many of the conflicts in the Middle East and often actively fostered them.
3) that Middle-Eastern conflicts are attention-seeking exercises waged for our benefit (huh?).
WRONG: this just shows a blatant ignorance about human nature. People fighting for their lives are not "naughty children".
4) that Middle-Eastern conflicts will simply stop if we look the other way.
WRONG: Less opportunistic intervention might well help, but this is a fractured region of the world with plenty of competing interest groups. We have nearly as much chance of war in general being eradicated as conflict ceasing in the Middle East.
5) that the US has no responsibility to help fix the mess it played a huge role in creating.
WRONG: there will be conflicting views on this, but the fact is that the US have destroyed Iraq as a functional state, and these are the consequences.
6) that, even if any of the above were somehow true, allowing two sides to destroy each other like the Tutsis and Hutu, civilians included (which seems to be what you're suggesting) is a preferable approach to getting our hands dirty and playing peacekeeper. Because "damned if you do; damned if you don't".
My point here with reputation is that in some cases it's better to be "damned" and do the right thing than do nothing at all.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
I like your point, well said
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| think positive wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | So, potentially saving what 2,000, 3,000 lives isn't enough for the US to get there hands dirty and do the honourable thing and put troops on the ground to ensure these peoples safety?
Not good enough Obama. |
Every time the US does put troops on the ground in another country they get hammered for it and called invaders. When they leave they get criticised for not doing enough while they were there.
Does the term "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sound familiar?
In this case, they are already IMO doing overs to help out. They have no skin in this game and aren't the world police. |
Big hands clapping |
It's hard to know what you three are struggling more with there; the maths or the facts.
Sadly, 2000-3000 deaths is an infinitely better outcome than the carnage caused by the Iraq War, which involved some 150,000-600,000 deaths, 1.5M-3M refugees, inestimable injury and financial losses, some significant portion of the Global Financial Crisis through economic instability and oil-based inflation, and an unknown amount of the present problem.
I presume you agree media perceptions of Anglo-American power are a trivial sideshow. I mean, really; now we're are worried poor old US of A is in a no-win public relations situation? No wonder you missed the maths of the death and suffering.
And then to turn around and describe the involvement of US elite power as some sort of reluctant, good-hearted gesture, given all we know about the money trail and looting and pillaging of Iraqi assets, is surely the icing on the cake.
"Lest we forget" is not something exclusively reserved for ANZAC Day, surely.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
|
|
|
|
Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| pietillidie wrote: | | "Lest we forget" is not something exclusively reserved for ANZAC Day, surely. |
Correct. Mostly it applies to wedding anniversaries.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
|
|
|
|
think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
|
| Post subject: | |
|
Send in the expendables
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| think positive wrote: | | Send in the expendables |
and some others, blow all the ISIS knucklefucks to hell in a handbasket, find that douche nozzle who decapitated the journalist and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7aXuCaGHOmc
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
The way Abbott's exploiting this issue is pretty galling. You'd almost think he and his cronies had nothing to do with creating the crisis in the first place...
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
|
| Post subject: | |
|
| David wrote: | | The way Abbott's exploiting this issue is pretty galling. You'd almost think he and his cronies had nothing to do with creating the crisis in the first place... |
They created an Al Qaeda offshoot called ISIS who's been terrorising their way through the area?  
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
|
|
|
|
David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
|
| Post subject: | |
|
No, they didn't create ISIS (or ISIL, or IS, or whoever they are this week). They and their allies directly created the conditions that have allowed these fundamentalists to sweep in and effortlessly take over most of Iraq.
You can indirectly blame the US or Europe or even us indirectly for all manner of problems in the world, but you'll struggle to find a more clear-cut case than this one. Iraq under Saddam Hussein, for all its horrors, was a stable nation state with a functional defence force. The 'Coalition of the Willing' completely destroyed that status quo by deciding to invade the country, by the way they carried out the occupation (the decision to disband the entire Iraqi armed forces has to go down as one of the stupidest foreign policy decisions of the last century) and the way in which they withdrew. They essentially made Iraq a sitting duck.
Abbott was part of the government cabinet when we signed on to this crazy mission, and he and his colleagues deserve at least a share of the blame. Instead, we see him gleefully capitalising on the consequences of his and others' actions by enacting cynical "counter-terrorism" laws that are really just thinly-veiled attempts to increase state power and reduce civil liberties (plus drive up the "fear" vote). He must think that we all have the collective memory of a goldfish. Perhaps he's partially right.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum
|
|
The Rules
FAQ
Usergroups
Calendar
Search
Log in
Register
