Iraq in ruins
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sixpoints
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Location: Lulie Street
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Iraq - a failed state that was only ever an artificial construct that suited the interests of the west.
With the collapse of the Ottomans in 1918, the colonial victors (especially France & Britain) did their usual thing and drew lines on a map that completely disregarded the historical, linguistic and ethnic basis of the area. They created a Yugoslavia in Mesopotamia.
In establishing the artificial construct of 'Iraq', the west lumped millions of Kurds, millions of Sunnis and even more millions of Shiites into one state.
Rubbing salt into the wound, as soon as oil was discovered down south near the Saudi border, the Brits cleave off an area in 1961 and declare it free of Iraq. The separate oil rich state of Kuwait is declared for one reason only - the installation of a pro-west puppet regime rich in oil. The rest of Iraq will not receive the bounty.
So you set up Iraq to fail and then cleave off the one area that has the oil. Any wonder they are bitter.
The Kurds need putting down in order to placate Turkey and the west won't back the Shiite majority as they are cultural brothers of the Iranians, so all that's left is to top up a minority Sunni government and one that can forcefully retain power - hello Sadaam Hussein. The west then backs Sadaam in the war between Iraq & Iran.
A few decades of terror and now Sadaam is the enemy. The west invades, occupies and dethrones Sadaam and declares the war is won. The country is left in absolute turmoil and now realpolitik demands the west can only back a Shiite government and it's the Sunnis (ISIS) who have emerged to take back what they perceive they have lost.
Millions have died in the 100 years that this idiotically imposed nonsense of a country has been established. Any wonder these poor people feel dudded by the continual interference and downright stupidity of the west.
This place was set up to fail, and this is what it will continue to do at the
cost of perhaps untold thousands more lives. |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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^ Great post: a concise history of the area which covers everything that is most important. Meanwhile, some monumentally ignorant people can only complain that well-informed, balanced people like you are "just bashing Americans".
Shrug. What can you say? When people refuse to familiarise themselves with even the most basic, well-known and uncontroversial facts, you really just have to shake your head and walk away.
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Agreed, great post sixpoints. To understand any current events you need to be aware of history—not just that of 10 or 20 years ago, but that of a century, centuries, millennia even.
Colonialism has a lot to answer for, to say the least.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Tannin wrote: | ^ Great post: a concise history of the area which covers everything that is most important. Meanwhile, some monumentally ignorant people can only complain that well-informed, balanced people like you are "just bashing Americans".
Shrug. What can you say? When people refuse to familiarise themselves with even the most basic, well-known and uncontroversial facts, you really just have to shake your head and walk away. |
Jesus $£$%^%%$ Christ tannin if your gunna have a dig at me at least be upfront and honest about it
Yes true, that's all true. Great post six points. It's also true that the yanks that liberated Iraq from the tyranny of Saddam had nothing to do with those that set it all up way back when. The sins of the $£$%^%%$ fathers.
It's also true that taking pot shots at the yanks in this forum is a $£$%^%%$ national past time.
So this monumentally ignorant person (wow nice word, should we insert something worse) will do you a favour and walk away. Enjoy.
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Last edited by think positive on Tue Jun 17, 2014 2:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Not digging at you, TP. Well, I wasn't until you arced up just now. You weren't silly enough to say something dumb earlier in the thread, were you? (Pause, reads earlier pages ... Oh. I see. Right. Well, I wasn't having a crack at you when I posted 'coz I've been away and not reading all the threads and I was thinking of another person who doesn't post here, but you just outed yourself. If the cap fits, wear it.)
PS: those are shockingly bad excuses you are making for the dumbshit Americans just now, not even logical. They made a horrendous mess of the Middle-east with an uniquely American unholy combination of ruthless greed and gross incompetence, and now we see the result. Worse, we here in Australia share a small part of the blame 'coz we were so stupid that we elected John "weapons of mass destruction" Howard, who took us in where we had no business being, and took us in on a flat-out lie. There were no weapons of mass destruction, and Howard knew it.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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And yet those liberated by the yanks were thankful, not scornful.
And one hell of a lot of American soldiers died, or were maimed in those battles.
Dumbshit Americans hey! I rest my case
Nothing like keyboard warriors smashing away on the net. Just like in the GD thread.its very tiresome. Not much positive stuff around this place. And people think woman are bitches.
Yeah I get it I'll leave you to it
Cheers
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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I agree TP, but as I said earlier they squandered all that good work and good will the moment they disbanded the Iraqi Army post war. All the now out of work soldiers joined up with the various rebel and terrorist groups and we had the 8 year insurgency and now another rebellion. Getting rid of Saddam was a great thing, many people are alive today because of it, but there are also many dead who shouldn't be because the USA had no clue and no plan on how to occupy and rebuild a nation.
Saddam did have WMDs, but they were chemical weapons and he shipped them very promptly off to Syria when the heat started coming on. His nuke ambitions were dealt with by a unilateral Israeli airstrike on his facilities a long time ago (early 80s IIRC) and as far as I know they never got those back up and running.
Interestingly, ISIS seems to be staying well away from the Kurds. Anyone know why that is? Agreements? Outmatched? Just curious. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Wokko wrote: | I agree TP, but as I said earlier they squandered all that good work and good will the moment they disbanded the Iraqi Army post war. All the now out of work soldiers joined up with the various rebel and terrorist groups and we had the 8 year insurgency and now another rebellion. Getting rid of Saddam was a great thing, many people are alive today because of it, but there are also many dead who shouldn't be because the USA had no clue and no plan on how to occupy and rebuild a nation.
Saddam did have WMDs, but they were chemical weapons and he shipped them very promptly off to Syria when the heat started coming on. His nuke ambitions were dealt with by a unilateral Israeli airstrike on his facilities a long time ago (early 80s IIRC) and as far as I know they never got those back up and running.
Interestingly, ISIS seems to be staying well away from the Kurds. Anyone know why that is? Agreements? Outmatched? Just curious. |
Yep they definitely needed more of a peace keeping contingent.
It's a shame there are still so many crazy fools killing in the name of what ever god.
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| Withdraw everything from the area and let em kill each other/sort each other out. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Too many innocents to do that
- but I've said that before!
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| Would you prefer the innocents come here on boats? |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| 1061 wrote: | | Withdraw everything from the area and let em kill each other/sort each other out. |
| 1061 wrote: | | Would you prefer the innocents come here on boats? |
Wow. You're a true humanist.
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| David wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | | Withdraw everything from the area and let em kill each other/sort each other out. |
| 1061 wrote: | | Would you prefer the innocents come here on boats? |
Wow. You're a true humanist. |
Realist Dave.
Look at lets say Australia our country has been around forever with Humans living here and look at our history apart from a short military take over during the rum rebellion and our questionable treatment of Aboriginals we have a pretty settled history. Are we a better people to be honest because history says we are, we have not had our natives or any group of people who feel slighted take up arms instead we work through our conflicts. I know I am generalising here so please don't get bogged down by bringing individual issues into the debate as is your usual way. The basic Australian Principal of a Fair Go just doesn't seem to apply in these backward countries so that means IMO Australians are a better people. |
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CP
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Location: Melbourne
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| sixpoints wrote: | Iraq - a failed state that was only ever an artificial construct that suited the interests of the west.
With the collapse of the Ottomans in 1918, the colonial victors (especially France & Britain) did their usual thing and drew lines on a map that completely disregarded the historical, linguistic and ethnic basis of the area. They created a Yugoslavia in Mesopotamia.
In establishing the artificial construct of 'Iraq', the west lumped millions of Kurds, millions of Sunnis and even more millions of Shiites into one state.
Rubbing salt into the wound, as soon as oil was discovered down south near the Saudi border, the Brits cleave off an area in 1961 and declare it free of Iraq. The separate oil rich state of Kuwait is declared for one reason only - the installation of a pro-west puppet regime rich in oil. The rest of Iraq will not receive the bounty.
So you set up Iraq to fail and then cleave off the one area that has the oil. Any wonder they are bitter.
The Kurds need putting down in order to placate Turkey and the west won't back the Shiite majority as they are cultural brothers of the Iranians, so all that's left is to top up a minority Sunni government and one that can forcefully retain power - hello Sadaam Hussein. The west then backs Sadaam in the war between Iraq & Iran.
A few decades of terror and now Sadaam is the enemy. The west invades, occupies and dethrones Sadaam and declares the war is won. The country is left in absolute turmoil and now realpolitik demands the west can only back a Shiite government and it's the Sunnis (ISIS) who have emerged to take back what they perceive they have lost.
Millions have died in the 100 years that this idiotically imposed nonsense of a country has been established. Any wonder these poor people feel dudded by the continual interference and downright stupidity of the west.
This place was set up to fail, and this is what it will continue to do at the
cost of perhaps untold thousands more lives. |
Talk about people agreeing with what they want to hear. Because the "facts" contained in your post suit Tannin's and David's prejudices against the USA and UK, not only did they not check the veracity of your "facts" but instead, blindly agreed with what you wrote. Tannin even went on to say "when people refuse to familiarise themselves with even the most basic, well known and uncontroversial facts, you really just have to shake your head and walk away".
Well, I guess we should indeed all shake our heads and walk away.
For instance, you claim "Rubbing salt into the wound, as soon as oil was discovered down south near the Saudi border, the Brits cleave off an area in 1961 and declare it free of Iraq. The separate oil rich state of Kuwait is declared for one reason only - the installation of a pro-west puppet regime rich in oil. The rest of Iraq will not receive the bounty".
This could not be further from the truth.
Here is the reality:
- 1899: Kuwait and Britain signed the "Anglo/Kuwait Treaty".
- 1922: The current day border between Iraq and Kuwait was drawn after WWI by British civil servant Mark Sykes.
- 1937: Oil was discovered in Kuwait.
- 1946: Kuwait started exporting oil.
- 1961 (June): Kuwait obtained full independence from Great Britain when the Anglo/Kuwait Treaty of 1899 was formally ended. Here is what the Guardian wrote on 20th June 1961 ...
www.theguardian.com/theguardian/1961/jun/20/fromthearchive
- 1961 (July - October): After Kuwait obtained this full independence, Iraqi Prime Minister, Abdul Karim Qasim, (a former Iraqi Army General who had seized power in Iraq by coup in 1958) invaded Kuwait ... Britain answered a request by Kuwait to help their defence efforts. British involvement was only temporary ("Operation Vantage" from July to October 1961) and Arab League forces took over after this.
So now the actual facts / timeline of events have been presented one can see it is preposterous to say "Britain cleaved off Kuwait from Iraq in 1961 because oil had been found". Your attempt to make British PM of the time Harold Macmillan sound like a warmonger who annexed a nation for oil profits is a disgraceful attempt at re-writing history.
The usual suspects should ask themselves therefore why they were nonetheless just so willing to accept sixpoints' totally inaccurate historical account. This is how echo chambers come about.
More on the Britian/Kuwait Treaty of 1899 here ...
common-law-articles.blogspot.com.au/2012/09/british-kuwait-agreement-of-1899.html |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| 1061 wrote: | | David wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | | Withdraw everything from the area and let em kill each other/sort each other out. |
| 1061 wrote: | | Would you prefer the innocents come here on boats? |
Wow. You're a true humanist. |
Realist Dave.
Look at lets say Australia our country has been around forever with Humans living here and look at our history apart from a short military take over during the rum rebellion and our questionable treatment of Aboriginals we have a pretty settled history. Are we a better people to be honest because history says we are, we have not had our natives or any group of people who feel slighted take up arms instead we work through our conflicts. I know I am generalising here so please don't get bogged down by bringing individual issues into the debate as is your usual way. The basic Australian Principal of a Fair Go just doesn't seem to apply in these backward countries so that means IMO Australians are a better people. |
That's a very curious claim. I presume you're in agreement with me that people are more or less exactly the same regardless of their ethnicity and geographic location and that their differences—whatever they may be—are generally a product of culture and environment?
If you agree with that, I don't really see the point of arguing that Australians are "better people". If anything, the main reason for lack of serious conflict with our colonised peoples was their lack of numbers, co-ordination across diverse linguistic groups and technological achievement. If we had as many Indigenous people as Iraq has Kurds and they were as well-armed in 1788, do you think there would be much less conflict in Australia? What else do you think was so superior about British civilisation that prevented this? Perhaps someone else can offer some theories, but as far as I can tell it was mostly the differential in military strength along with the other factors I mentioned.
I also don't understand the "let's just allow them to massacre each other" approach. Non-intervention may well be the least worst option, but it seems awfully cavalier to treat foreigners as mere cannon fodder. One suspects that you would feel quite differently if you had friends or family living there. And suggesting that you would rather innocent civilians die than come here as refugees is perhaps even more appalling.
You must view these people as practically subhuman to feel that way. But then, I guess that's a byproduct of media representation: the foreigner as the faceless "other". As trivial as it might sound, the act of watching foreign films—particularly, in this case, those from the Middle East—can be a powerful antidote to that view. A bit harder to casually endorse people's deaths when you can see them walking around, talking, emoting and having everyday personal dramas just like you or me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T02oZVtsjnA
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