Iraq in ruins

[swoop42]

Are we starting to see now why Hussein was such a feared evil bastard?

He had to remain the king of the jungle otherwise a pack of opportunistic hyenas would have eaten him alive.

[1061]

Take Lisa Simpson's advice, just don't look!

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/54613/just_don_t_look/

[stui magpie]

[David]

Nope, I don't think you can really blame the West for Syria (though, as with most Middle Eastern dictatorships, I'm sure you'll find American/European fingerprints if you look back far enough). My point is that if it hadn't been for the weakening of Iraq, Assad and IS would still be locked in a stalemate in Syria and, as horrible as that conflict has been, that would be that. As it is, IS now essentially have a country to themselves to use as a platform for consolidation, expansion and preparation for future attacks. Ironically, Iraq can now become what the US (incorrectly) said it was over a decade ago: a terrorist state. That's a catastrophe in anyone's book.

[Mugwump]

[David]

^ On the contrary, I think the world could have been spared millions of deaths if the aftermath of World War 1 had been handled a little less vindictively. Versailles didn't justify Nazism, but it's more than likely that Nazism wouldn't have flourished without it.

Perhaps, as you say, that's a less than helpful observation when Germany's invading Poland and an urgent response is needed. But we need to acknowledge this stuff somehow, because if we don't we just make the same old mistakes again and again.

As for criticising the world's liberal democracies, it's all about power. European colonial powers controlled something like 80-90% of the world's land mass 100 years ago. The US have been the world's dominant superpower for 70 years, and have played a very active role in many conflicts around the world, from Latin America to the Middle East to South East Asia. Acknowledging that dynamic and its often devastating consequences is no mere contrarianism or cultural self-effacement. And I say all this as someone who is just as grateful as you are to live in a liberal democracy.

I think I prefer Scandinavia. You get better liberal democracy and far less destructive overseas intervention.

[HAL]

That was before I was born.

[Mugwump]

[David]

^ Perhaps I'm exposing my shaky knowledge of WW1 history, but wasn't the war started by Austria-Hungary invading Serbia? Germany just jumped along for the ride along with most other colonial powers, I thought. Don't forget that, while Germany was trying to take Eastern France, Australians (under the command of the UK) were off trying to conquer Turkish beaches. Good luck finding a moral anchor in the Great War.

You're right that the US has had some fearsome enemies to fight against, but I think you accept too much of a black-and-white narrative here: American expansionism was every bit as much a facet of the Cold War as the Soviet variety was. America was fighting for America's military and economic interests first and foremost, not some grand principle of freedom (as much as the propaganda of the time would have had us believe otherwise). I'm not sure I see any grand commitment to freedom in the USA's installation of Pinochet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_South_and_Central_America

[Mugwump]

[stui magpie]

Right, now those ISIS sods have gone too far.

[Mugwump]

^ they'll be claiming credit for pushing Humpty Dumpty next.

[stui magpie]

Apparently we're on the way back in.

[David]

Is parliament actually going to vote on this, or is Abbott going to make use of his special "war powers"?

Personally, I'm cautiously supportive of an air strike against militants, but I'd hope that America and co. have done their homework here. Precedent would suggest they've done nothing of the sort.

[Culprit]

Defence is ramping up to go back in even though nothing is official. It's nudge nudge, wink wink. Get ready for a 3rd time to try to fix another *uck up.