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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Post subject: Iraq in ruins |  |
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11 years of warfare and bloodshed, and for what? 
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jun/12/crisis-in-iraq-insurgents-take-major-cities-live-blog
| Quote: | At least half a million people are on the move in Iraq after insurgent force the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (Isis), continued its offensive towards Baghdad, reportedly taking the city of Tikrit – home town of former leader Saddam Hussein – overnight. The assault comes on the heels of Wednesday’s takeover of Mosul and surrounding regions, where a reported 30,000 Iraqi troops fled from just 800 insurgents after three days of sporadic fighting.
In the insurgents' most significant gain so far, Isis fighters entered Mosul and stripped the main army base, released hundreds of prisoners from jails and may have seized up to $480m in cash from Mosul banks. Fighters also seized the Turkish consulate, kidnapping 25 staff including the diplomatic head of the mission.
The swift capitulation of Iraq army forces in the city prompted condemnation and suspicion from the government.
"The army and police and the security organisations are much stronger than they [Isis] are, but there was a trick and a conspiracy," said Iraq's prime minister Nouri al-Maliki. "We will deal with it, but after we end their presence."
Tikrit, believed to have been taken by the insurgents overnight, lies less than 200km from capital Baghdad.
In July of last year Isis freed hundreds of convicted terrorists when it overran Baghdad’s Abu Ghraib prison, and in December the group retook parts of former al-Qaida strongholds Fallujah and Ramadi. |
So much for Bush's "mission accomplished".
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/12/anti-war-protesters-iraq-invasion-bloody-chaos
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Culprit 
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| The West tried to impose democracy on a country that doesn't know what democracy is. The result is death on a large scale. Afghanistan will finish the same way. |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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This is what it looks like when you win a war but lose the peace. A peace they lost the moment they disbanded the Iraqi Army immediately following the invasion. Shows that the USA is great at war, but not so great at rebuilding and rearming their puppet governments. After WW2 they spent decades rebuilding and rearming or protecting their defeated enemies and now Germany and Japan are peaceful powerhouses.
It is also what they're reaping from supporting the 'rebels' in Syria. The only thing that can make this worse is if Iran helps the Iraqi Shiites or the Kurds are pulled into all out war (or both). Truly a clustercluck of epic proportions. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I'm sure there's plenty of people there who would love democracy and deserve to be able to live in one, unfortunately there's still enough fundamentalist nutjobs with guns who want to keep the area in the dark ages so they can control it.
WTF do you do? If the Iraq government asks for help do we send troops in again or do we abandon those people?
IMO, if you say you vote to abandon them to their lot, you also then agree we should not take them as refugees when they end up in Indonesia trying to board a boat. I'd rather try to help them stay where they are.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Stui, there will be refugees whether America marches in to the 'rescue' or not. There already are. So that's a red herring. Obviously any means of helping restore stability should be considered, but I have no idea what options the US, EU, Iran and Russia are willing to entertain or how far they'd go after the disaster of the original occupation. The fact is that the 'Coalition of the Willing' have created this mess by voluntarily transforming a stable (albeit tyrannical) country into an unstable one and not knowing how to transform it back again. Terrible irresponsibility.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Culprit
Joined: 06 Feb 2003
Location: Port Melbourne
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| David wrote: | | Stui, there will be refugees whether America marches in to the 'rescue' or not. There already are. So that's a red herring. Obviously any means of helping restore stability should be considered, but I have no idea what options the US, EU, Iran and Russia are willing to entertain or how far they'd go after the disaster of the original occupation. The fact is that the 'Coalition of the Willing' have created this mess by voluntarily transforming a stable (albeit tyrannical) country into an unstable one and not knowing how to transform it back again. Terrible irresponsibility. |
True David but it was good for American Defence Companies and their shareholders. |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| Quote: | | On April 9, Baghdad fell, ending President Hussein's 24‑year rule. US forces seized the deserted Ba'ath Party ministries and stage-managed[154] the tearing down of a huge iron statue of Hussein, photos and video of which became symbolic of the event, although later controversial. |
Post this date it became an occupation and insurgency, and that's where the USA failed. The War itself was a spectacular military success. The US has a habit of spectacular military success followed by abject failure. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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A collaboration that's actually possible with Obama in charge.
Does anyone remember the 2012 elections when various Republican candidates were lining up to talk about bombing Iran? FMD America and the rest of the world dodged a bullet there.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Send in an undercover team to utterly frag these dipshits leadership. Nothing nice, aerial bomb them with black plague or calicivirus if needed, just wipe the cnuts out.
I'm sick of these extremist arsewipes who want to take control of vast areas by dragging everything back to the dark ages. Those people deserve better. It's hard enough to get progress in some of these places when everything is aligned your way.
OK, so we won the war over there, screwed up the peace and left an opening for the last mobs deranged little brother. FMD, I'm starting to think Nostradamus was right, it's just a matter of when.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Wokko wrote: |
| Quote: | | On April 9, Baghdad fell, ending President Hussein's 24‑year rule. US forces seized the deserted Ba'ath Party ministries and stage-managed[154] the tearing down of a huge iron statue of Hussein, photos and video of which became symbolic of the event, although later controversial. |
Post this date it became an occupation and insurgency, and that's where the USA failed. The War itself was a spectacular military success. The US has a habit of spectacular military success followed by abject failure. |
It wasn't to unseat Hussain that we went into Iraq.
We were looking for weapons of mass destruction (and to counter terrorism) neither of the missions were successfully completed.
There was about 83,000 men in Iraq in 2003, by 2007 there were 160,000.
There were 581 deaths in the whole of 2003 but nearly 4,000 US deaths 10 years later.
Your claim that tearing down a statue (and chasing a rat into a hole) marked the end of the war is laughable. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | Wokko wrote: |
| Quote: | | On April 9, Baghdad fell, ending President Hussein's 24‑year rule. US forces seized the deserted Ba'ath Party ministries and stage-managed[154] the tearing down of a huge iron statue of Hussein, photos and video of which became symbolic of the event, although later controversial. |
Post this date it became an occupation and insurgency, and that's where the USA failed. The War itself was a spectacular military success. The US has a habit of spectacular military success followed by abject failure. |
It wasn't to unseat Hussain that we went into Iraq.
We were looking for weapons of mass destruction (and to counter terrorism) neither of the missions were successfully completed.
There was about 83,000 men in Iraq in 2003, by 2007 there were 160,000.
There were 581 deaths in the whole of 2003 but nearly 4,000 US deaths 10 years later.
Your claim that tearing down a statue (and chasing a rat into a hole) marked the end of the war is laughable. |
It's not a claim, it's a fact. The 2003-2011 post invasion conflict was a counter insurgency. The USA was not fighting against any other sovereign nation, they were fighting against a rebellion.
Date 20 March 2003 – 1 May 2003
Location Iraq
Result Coalition victory
Ba'athist Iraqi government overthrown
Occupation of Iraq until June 2004
New Iraqi government established
Iraqi insurgency and sectarian conflicts
This is winning a war, and winning it convincingly. If the USA had just left then and not occupied Iraq there would be no question at all on their military success. The problem lied in them staying and fighting against the insurgency and doing it in an incredibly inept and ham fisted way. The war was never about WMDs, it was an action to remove the regime of Saddam Hussein and install a democratic parliamentary government. This would then lead to other Middle Eastern nations looking to Iraq and overthrowing their own dictatorships.
Of course, it didn't work out that way, but to deny the overwhelming military victory because the USA lead an incompetent occupation is ridiculous. No matter how you spin it, the Coalition met all their military goals, and even post invasion the Iraqi government is still in power so they also defeated both the Sunni and Shia insurgencies. If the current insurgency/invasion succeeds, it is against the Iraqi government. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ But what if they had cut and run in May 2003? Clearly, their puppet regime wouldn't have lasted days. Would you still call that a resounding victory?
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | | ^ But what if they had cut and run in 2003? Clearly, their puppet regime wouldn't have lasted days. Would you still call that a resounding victory? |
Militarily, yes. Same as if the allies had left Germany or Japan in 1945 and said "deal with your own shit". A war and an occupation are two different things imo. It would have been a disaster for Iraq though if they'd just left, but the military campaign would still have been a victory. |
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