Welfare
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| Should all citizens be granted a minimum standard of living? |
| Yes, unconditionally. |
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43% |
[ 13 ] |
| Only if they are pulling their weight or are physically/mentally incapable of doing so. |
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53% |
[ 16 ] |
| No. We are not entitled to anything from our government. |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Other (please specify in post). |
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3% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 30 |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Does he at least have the white cane in hand out the window or the guide dog perched on the bonnet?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| stui magpie wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | But you just want to sit home, watch telly, have a smoke and a drink and kick back, then no, absolutely not. Why does someone deserve a free ride like that? |
Do try to discover the real world one day, TP. No-one can sit around smoking, let alone drinking, on the pitifully small amount the unemployment benefit pays. Just smoking alone - and this is only at the normal rate most moderate smokers go at, we are not talking heavy smoking here - is 50% of the entire benefit. Yes, you read that right: the benefit is so low that, if you smoke, you have $125 per week left for every other expense put together. Good luck paying rent with that. And you can completely forget about eating. |
I've personally seen different. Smoking and drinking not so much, but smoking, eating junk food and the occasional hit of ice and a few drinks. Once you pool the dole across a few like minded souls it's amazing how far it goes. Take 3 blokes sharing a 3 bedroom house paying $100 per week each rent. Add in an unemployed GF who doesn't pay rent but basically lives there and chips in for food, booze, drugs and smokes and it's surprisingly achieveable.
And in regard to Ptiddy's reference to people who don't want to work having a form of mental illness, I wouldn't go that far. Maybe personality disorder but the ones I've seen up close all have in common that they want as much as they can have without having to do anything for it. The other things that had in common were blatant immaturity, self centredness and tickets on themself.
I get the pragmatic argument about paying a minimal payment to everyone, but I couldn't agree to it. I find the concept offensive. |
But how many dole bludgers are this orgainised as no one shares drugs unless they are sharing bodily fluids as well. A few deals on tic and before you know it bludger 1, 2 or 3 has to use all his dole to repay the dealer and his share of the rent is blown. |
Mate, I'm not saying there is a great heap of them out there and I'm certainly not trying to tar everyone on centrelink with the same brush. All I'm saying is I've seen this exact scenario and I know that it's more common than people think.
For mine centrelink exists as a safety net. For those people who choose not to work, my choice would be to pay them nothing. If they then face starvation etc, then sign on to look for a job and you get centrelink. |
It probably happens more in a family situation than just a group of mates. How many couples have one with a few clothes in a second bedroom so they can claim two single benefits.
I dobbed someone in last year I was helping in their own home who supposedly had a bad back and had their other indigenous name ready to lean on if they needed extra funds. |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| The Prototype wrote: | | think positive wrote: | I don't.
If they just can't be fagged getting a job, don't even look, then no, they get no help. That's the idea of super. Of savings. You want a nice long holiday to sit on your arse and so nothing, (hey don't we all at times) then you get a job like the rest of us and save so you can afford it.
Anyone who is really trying, anyone with a disability, whether physical or mental, the. Yes, give them all the help they need.
As I've said before, if scumbags were not rorting the system, those who are really in need, would, or should, be much better looked after.
And those on a long term disability pension, is there anything to stop them doing a little community service to help out? It would surely help with intergrating into society.
Self responsibility, self respect, self help.
But you just want to sit home, watch telly, have a smoke and a drink and kick back, then no, absolutely not. Why does someone deserve a free ride like that? |
I get what you are saying, I suppose in my soft hearted nature I believe that everyone deserves some kind of standard of living even if they're lazy assclowns. And believe me I have met a lot of vermin where I live, but I'd choose them living off of something somewhere else and not doing my stuff any harm then them turning towards further crime and such.
Not to say all would, but a fair percentage here where I am would. But it's just my personal opinion. |
Exactly. This is where the idea of social security comes in: it's not just about individual welfare, it's about the welfare of society as a whole. If people can't get money through legitimate means, more than a few will turn to crime. Who loses? Everybody.
I think we need to get beyond these petty resentments that so often surface in these conversations. Welfare cheats, people on dodgy disability pensions, prisoners living in luxury (lol)—it's all just Today Tonight stuff, making us feel pissed off because someone seems to have something that we don't.
Life isn't some kind of race where the winner takes it all. A society with a universal minimum standard of living guarantees a happier, safer, kinder, friendlier and more productive life for everybody. Your life and my life don't get worse because someone else is getting unemployment benefits; they actually get better.
So long as that payment isn't too high, people will still try to find work, because, guess what, most people actually want to work. Our low unemployment rate is proof of that.
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange
Last edited by David on Mon May 19, 2014 8:56 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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Last edited by 3.14159 on Mon May 19, 2014 9:02 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
I did workers comp claims for a while back in the 80's so I don't have a high regard for human nature in general, and yeah my daughter has told me of some of her clients.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Hurricane
Joined: 17 May 2001
Location: Melbourne, VIC, AUSTRALIA
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Another one from Facebook.
She doesn't work, 2 young children. Husband also doesn't work.
She was complaining about her financial situation in "my" Facebook status and said she is on the waiting list for public housing but currently renting privately. (I say my as I didn't go out to attack her, she gave up all this info freely in my post and I challenged her on it)
I said you could get a job, you have chosen this situation with both of you not working.
She says I can't because of the kids.
I said well one of you could work.
She says husband can't work as he has depression.
Well I say then you could work, only one of you needs to be home with the kids.
She said would you leave you kids home with a depressed suicidal man for 8 hours?
I said so who did you leave them with when you went on your recent trip to America? Yes America.
With hubby she said.
Oh so you can't leave him with them to work as you are afraid but you can leave them with him when you leave the country?
Yep makes sense lol.
I also mentioned it might help hubby's depression if he was working but well I'm no psychiatrist.
It amazes me my middle class friends can only afford to take a year off after having a baby but these 2 can both afford to stay home with the kids. They are not doing the kids any favours, it's good for kids to see their parents working. |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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| Hurricane wrote: | | It amazes me my middle class friends can only afford to take a year off after having a baby but these 2 can both afford to stay home with the kids. They are not doing the kids any favours, it's good for kids to see their parents working. |
Very true - there are some families living in public housing where there are 3 or 4 generations that have never worked and have no intention of working even though they most certainly could!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.†|
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nomadjack
Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | | Tannin wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | But you just want to sit home, watch telly, have a smoke and a drink and kick back, then no, absolutely not. Why does someone deserve a free ride like that? |
Do try to discover the real world one day, TP. No-one can sit around smoking, let alone drinking, on the pitifully small amount the unemployment benefit pays. Just smoking alone - and this is only at the normal rate most moderate smokers go at, we are not talking heavy smoking here - is 50% of the entire benefit. Yes, you read that right: the benefit is so low that, if you smoke, you have $125 per week left for every other expense put together. Good luck paying rent with that. And you can completely forget about eating. |
^^^ Yes - I've been reading this thread trying to picture who it is that would actually prefer to live on "welfare" than work to earn a bearable living. For the most part, I assume that people who don't work for a living don't work for a living because they are unable to do so viably. I don't doubt that there are people who do "choose" to rely on welfare but (save for the criminal underclass, in respect of which the failure to do a day's work is the least of our collective problems) they must be very battered and tortured souls to have made that "choice". They wouldn't be living "high on the hog" on that sort of money and I assume they need compassion, sympathy and support, not their modest "life-line" cut-off. |
Same ones who sit in casualty for 6 hours waiting to see a doctor out of choice rather than going to a GP...  |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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The stupid thing about this whole argument is that some people (and perhaps this current government) seem to think welfare payments vanish into thin air and not back into the economy.
The overwhelming majority of those receiving longer term welfare payments would be renters with the reality being those payments are most likely paying off the mortgage of some investment property which is being negatively geared by the owner.
Everyone has to eat and pay the utilities bills so there is more money going back to the wider community in terms of jobs that fulfill that need in terms of supermarkets, call centres etc.
Everyone has to pay GST, own a car you will pay excise on the petrol plus a multitude of other taxes no one can avoid.
At the end of the day the majority of people who receive welfare are spending the majority of that money in the local economy which benefits all.
_________________
He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | | I get the pragmatic argument about paying a minimal payment to everyone, but I couldn't agree to it. I find the concept offensive. |
But you're already paying it; it's called the judicial system and law enforcement. You're a pragmatist who already knows moral obsessions at the expense of real outcomes are dumb. Just add another such instance to the list you already have.
For me, it's about much more than a safety net. It's about not letting people go; not giving up on even the worst bastard regardless of how unlikable they are. It's about looking beyond people's facades and seeing their potential. And, as I say, the data shows Darwinianism is not only primitive, it's extremely expensive and wasteful.
Personally, I would like to see the wayward get serious mental health treatment and support, social guidance, job training, and so on. But that's far more difficult and expensive to do than simply providing a minimum social guarantee.
People just don't realise just how expensive it is to push the problem onto other services. It reminds me of the ignorant US jingoists in the media marveling at their own greatness but being unable to work out why their healthcare is dollar-for-dollar so bad: Sometimes when the data doesn't stack up you have to abandon your old views.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| pietillidie wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | I get the pragmatic argument about paying a minimal payment to everyone, but I couldn't agree to it. I find the concept offensive. |
But you're already paying it; it's called the judicial system and law enforcement. You're a pragmatist who already knows moral obsessions at the expense of real outcomes are dumb. Just add another such instance to the list you already have.
For me, it's about much more than a safety net. It's about not letting people go; not giving up on even the worst bastard regardless of how unlikable they are. It's about looking beyond people's facades and seeing their potential. And, as I say, the data shows Darwinianism is not only primitive, it's extremely expensive and wasteful.
Personally, I would like to see the wayward get serious mental health treatment and support, social guidance, job training, and so on. But that's far more difficult and expensive to do than simply providing a minimum social guarantee.
People just don't realise just how expensive it is to push the problem onto other services. It reminds me of the ignorant US jingoists in the media marveling at their own greatness but being unable to work out why their healthcare is dollar-for-dollar so bad: Sometimes when the data doesn't stack up you have to abandon your old views. |
I disagree. Apart from my issues with giving people money for nothing, I tend to think that just giving people money while acknowledging they have no interest in working or doing anything to contribute to themself is actually really giving up on people and letting them go.
You're saying "you're an oxygen thief and a waste of carbon atoms, here's enough money to exist on now **** off". You're writing these people off as a lost cause up front.
Surely having the concept of pushing people into employment and/or study is more constructive?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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| Tannin wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | But you just want to sit home, watch telly, have a smoke and a drink and kick back, then no, absolutely not. Why does someone deserve a free ride like that? |
Do try to discover the real world one day, TP. No-one can sit around smoking, let alone drinking, on the pitifully small amount the unemployment benefit pays. Just smoking alone - and this is only at the normal rate most moderate smokers go at, we are not talking heavy smoking here - is 50% of the entire benefit. Yes, you read that right: the benefit is so low that, if you smoke, you have $125 per week left for every other expense put together. Good luck paying rent with that. And you can completely forget about eating. |
You obviously haven't been in the real world ....
I had a state housing maintenance contract for almost 10 years in the 90's. Saw plenty of smokers ... hmmm maybe about 95% of ém and ... yep, they were definitely JB a Cola cans scattered all over the place... maybe I was in another 'real world' hey 
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Oops. Too much data. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | | pietillidie wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | I get the pragmatic argument about paying a minimal payment to everyone, but I couldn't agree to it. I find the concept offensive. |
But you're already paying it; it's called the judicial system and law enforcement. You're a pragmatist who already knows moral obsessions at the expense of real outcomes are dumb. Just add another such instance to the list you already have.
For me, it's about much more than a safety net. It's about not letting people go; not giving up on even the worst bastard regardless of how unlikable they are. It's about looking beyond people's facades and seeing their potential. And, as I say, the data shows Darwinianism is not only primitive, it's extremely expensive and wasteful.
Personally, I would like to see the wayward get serious mental health treatment and support, social guidance, job training, and so on. But that's far more difficult and expensive to do than simply providing a minimum social guarantee.
People just don't realise just how expensive it is to push the problem onto other services. It reminds me of the ignorant US jingoists in the media marveling at their own greatness but being unable to work out why their healthcare is dollar-for-dollar so bad: Sometimes when the data doesn't stack up you have to abandon your old views. |
I disagree. Apart from my issues with giving people money for nothing, I tend to think that just giving people money while acknowledging they have no interest in working or doing anything to contribute to themself is actually really giving up on people and letting them go.
You're saying "you're an oxygen thief and a waste of carbon atoms, here's enough money to exist on now **** off". You're writing these people off as a lost cause up front.
Surely having the concept of pushing people into employment and/or study is more constructive? |
Yes, hence the bolded paragraph! But the present government just made it harder to both get medical treatment and study, which is a regressive step entirely.
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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mandy 
Joined: 03 Jun 2001
Location: Glen Iris
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This thread makes me sad. And so, so pessimistic for the future.
What selfish, entitled people live in my world. 
(And I'm not talking about people needing welfare.)
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#TEAMBUCKS
#TEAMEDDIE
#TEAMCOLLINGWOOD
#SIDEBYSIDE |
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