Mini-history wars
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Quote: | | Operation Barbarossa (German: Fall Barbarossa, literally "Case Barbarossa"), beginning 22 June 1941, was the code name for Germany's invasion of the Soviet Union during World War II.[17][18] Over the course of the operation, about four million soldiers of the Axis powers invaded the USSR along a 2,900 km (1,800 mi) front,[1][4][19] the largest invasion in the history of warfare. In addition to troops, Barbarossa used 600,000 motor vehicles and 750,000 horses.[20] The ambitious operation was driven by Adolf Hitler's persistent desire to conquer the Soviet territories as embodied in Generalplan Ost. It marked the beginning of the pivotal phase in deciding the victors of the war. The German invasion of the Soviet Union caused a high rate of fatalities: 95% of all German Army casualties that occurred from 1941 to 1944, and 65% of all Allied military casualties from the entire war. |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Barbarossa
Some good detail. I don't think I saw the term "invasion" used to describe the Soviets march into Berlin.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Some wonderful examples here of how to be correct in detail and woefully wrong overall. First this:
| David wrote: | | Considering that much of the resentment that fanned the flames of national socialism came from the perception of overly harsh treatment in the aftermath of WW1, I'm not actually sure that an occupation of Germany in 1918 would have achieved much good—indeed, it might have made things even worse (if possible). |
Correct in the first part, clearly wrong in the second. The Allies were indeed too lenient in 1918 (and I'll explain why shortly) and too harsh with their reparations. The massive economic problems these reparations caused did indeed fan the flames of National Socialism to a white hot heat. However, the other essential requirement for the Nazi aggression that started WW2 was the pervasive myth that Germany had not really been defeated, merely betrayed by Jews and leftists at home in the Fatherland. Militarily, Germany was utterly spent in 1918 - in far worse case than Hitler's Germany was in January 1945, with no technological miracles ready to save them. The "stab-in-the-back myth", as they called it, was absurdly, ridiculously untrue, but the Allies failure to invade made it superficially plausible, and thus allowed Nazi militarists to hold the fantasy that their Master Race was undefeated and invincible. It also provided powerful propaganda support for ruthless crushing of communists, moderates, Jews, and any other traitors.
| Wokko wrote: | | Indeed to say that the horrendous cost put on Germany at the end of World War 1 sans a direct invasion were too lenient and allowed them to rebuild is just so crazy and misguided it boggles the mind. Weimar Germany was an impoverished, broken, bitter nation. It was because of the abject failure of this harsh treatment that the USA rebuilt Japan and Germany rather than attempt to economically ruin them. |
Same mistake. For all his preaching about "nuance" and complexity, Wokko doesn't seem to be any good at reading it himself. The settlement of WW1 was both too harsh and too lenient. A good rule of thumb - one that the Allies clearly should have followed after WW1 and did follow after WW2 - is this: in war, be resolute and determined. In peace, be forgiving and generous. Generosity in war is lunacy just as harshness in peace avails you little and just fans the flames of conflict.
| David wrote: | | What would have achieved more good would have been to not deliberately bankrupt the German economy through reparations (which were unfair at any rate because all sides in WW1 were to blame — Germany simply had the misfortune of being on the losing team). |
No, all sides were not to blame, not equally or even almost equally. France did not invade Germany, Brittan did not crush small European nations just because they could. There was blame to spread, but by far the greater part of it was rightfully sheeted home to the Kaiser's Germany. Morally, reparations were more than justified.
In practice, the combination of harsh punitive reparations with a weak failure to finish the job and make the victory both crushing and unambiguous led to the rise of Hitler.
Moving on now:
| David wrote: | | I can't find one definition of invasion that suggests Lynch's use is in any way misleading, manipulative or ambiguous...... If I'm like a dog with a bone on this, it's because people continue to insist that their definition of invasion is correct when it clearly isn't. |
You miss the point. No-one is quibbling with the term itself. It is Lynch's slanderous attempt to blame the invasion on the "barbarian" Russians as if it was something they themselves initiated, rather than something forced on them by the brutal aggression of Nazi Germany.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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PS: please can we have another thread? I haven't had a good shout at Stui for weeks, and in this thread he just keeps making sense. Very frustrating.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Tannin wrote: | | PS: please can we have another thread? I haven't had a good shout at Stui for weeks, and in this thread he just keeps making sense. Very frustrating. |
Sorry, I haven't had much internet access the last few days. Now I'm home I'll certainly try to increase the volume of posts that make no sense.
 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Nonsense! I've never read such crap in my life! Seriously, your ignorance on this subject is mind-boggling. You have no evidence, no logical case to make, all you can do is smear, slander, and insult perfectly good people who have done nothing to harm you and who, let's face it, are intellectually and morally your superiors by a long, long margin. I've read some terrible posts in my time, but this is the worst that I can remember. You are a disgrace! Hang your head and learn something about the topic before you post again.
^ There. Done. You may now post whatever you wish on any subject. For your convenience, my reply is above. Simply copy and paste it in wherever you judge appropriate.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Tannin wrote: | | David wrote: | | I can't find one definition of invasion that suggests Lynch's use is in any way misleading, manipulative or ambiguous...... If I'm like a dog with a bone on this, it's because people continue to insist that their definition of invasion is correct when it clearly isn't. |
You miss the point. No-one is quibbling with the term itself. It is Lynch's slanderous attempt to blame the invasion on the "barbarian" Russians as if it was something they themselves initiated, rather than something forced on them by the brutal aggression of Nazi Germany. |
Except that you totally imagined that, because he implied no such thing. And he didn't call the Russians "barbarians", he referred to the "barbarity of the invasion". If you find anything else he writes on the subject, let me know, because that's about it as far as I can see.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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What me and the first other 120,000 readers? Gosh! What a coincidence that everybody reading it "imagined" exactly the same thing! Whod'a thunk it?
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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People see what they want to see. 
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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Basil was right.
Don't mention the war.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| I'm wishing I hadn't. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Tannin wrote: | Nonsense! I've never read such crap in my life! Seriously, your ignorance on this subject is mind-boggling. You have no evidence, no logical case to make, all you can do is smear, slander, and insult perfectly good people who have done nothing to harm you and who, let's face it, are intellectually and morally your superiors by a long, long margin. I've read some terrible posts in my time, but this is the worst that I can remember. You are a disgrace! Hang your head and learn something about the topic before you post again.
^ There. Done. You may now post whatever you wish on any subject. For your convenience, my reply is above. Simply copy and paste it in wherever you judge appropriate. |
I tried to save it as my signature, just to save time, but it's too long. Can you give me a shorter version?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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die4pies 
Homeward bound
Joined: 07 Nov 2005
Location: Trenerry Cres.
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| swoop42 wrote: | Basil was right.
Don't mention the war. |
I did once but I think I got away with it
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"MAKE COLLINGWOOD GRATE AGAIN" |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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So, now that we've covered WWII, what next? The korean War, which was a war made directly from the ashes of WWII (Korea being at that time a possession of Japan and was therefore taken off Japan after WWII, split in half Solomon style and given to the USSR and USA to play with) or given that ANZAC Day is so soon, would WWI be better?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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I'm thinking Star Wars.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Do you wear your Chewbacca suit when you take the goat out on dates?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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