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Should I become a vegetarian?

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Should I become a vegetarian?
Yes
18%
 18%  [ 4 ]
Yes, and I should become a vegan too
13%
 13%  [ 3 ]
No, but I should start consuming meat from more ethical sources
22%
 22%  [ 5 ]
No
22%
 22%  [ 5 ]
It really doesn't matter either way
22%
 22%  [ 5 ]
Total Votes : 22

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David Libra

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Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 12:59 pm
Post subject: Should I become a vegetarian?Reply with quote

This is a long post, but I'd appreciate you reading as much as you can (or feel like) and responding thoughtfully. I think it's an important issue.

I've never liked hurting animals. I go far out of my way to avoid killing ants or flies, and would feel angry and upset if I saw someone treating a cat or magpie cruelly.

In many ways, this would seem to make me an ideal candidate for vegetarianism. However, apart from a brief flirtation with the idea at the age of 10 or 11 (quickly stomped upon by my mother, who pointed out that I still wore leather shoes), I've never really come close to becoming a vegetarian. Even now, when I tell people I'm starting to think about it seriously, am I really? I still buy a chicken burger from Hungry Jack's if I feel like it. I'm yet to experience a practical situation in which I've chosen the vegetarian option for ethical reasons.

This, you may rightly conclude, makes me a massive hypocrite. But I have a defence (you can decide how flimsy it is): the reason I don't like engaging in animal slaughter is not moral or ethical; I just personally find it unpleasant to participate in and/or witness. But I don't derive the same displeasure from being an indirect participant in the meat industry.

What I really need in order to make the leap to vegetarianism, I think, is a solid rational argument why. For me, Lola's "pescetarianism" (she eats seafood but not other forms of meat) is an unsatisfying conclusion: if I care about the wellbeing of cows and pigs, why shouldn't I care about the wellbeing of prawns and salmon? To respond that the latter are lesser life-forms with a less developed form of sentience is simply to reiterate one of the reasons why I feel no moral qualms about eating meat in the first place. It simply shifts the goalposts. On the other hand, taking an "all life is sacred" response would be ludicrous: are we going to stop curing disease lest we murder innocent parasites?

Perhaps I can explain my position a little further: although I avoid killing flies and mosquitoes, I don't actually think that killing them is wrong, so to speak. I certainly wouldn't be heading to parliament to table legislation against it. I do, however, oppose unnecessary animal cruelty, for reasons I've explained better elsewhere:

David wrote:
Because animals cannot fight for their own rights, it falls to us to decide what rights we grant them. As this decision will take part within the bounds of exclusively human society, it will naturally be determined by the interests of the people involved. Some may prefer to live in a society in which animal cruelty or certain kinds of animal slaughter do not occur; some may prefer to live in a society in which they can freely eat meat. Whatever the case, the decision will be made by people, for people. There is no prospect of animal self-determination here.

As human decisions will be irrevocably chained to self-interest, it is highly unlikely that we would ever agree to something that harms us significantly. Hence, it is highly unlikely in any imaginable society for the rights of bacteria to be taken into account when trying to cure diseases. In fact, it is highly unlikely that we would ever pass a law benefiting animals if the cost to human society outweighed the net benefit. A depressing analogy is that our foreign aid is never raised to the extent that any meaningful reduction of our quality of life could occur (even though we could pay many times as much and still live happy, healthy, prosperous lives). If we pass a law that, say, criminalises eating meat, it will only be because our desire to not kill animals unnecessarily is greater than our desire to eat meat. That's it.


This is why I believe we have laws against animal cruelty: because we find the concept (not just the sight) of animal cruelty unpleasant and prefer not to tolerate it as a society. For this reason, I might give much more serious consideration to boycotting the factory meat industry and only eating meat from 'ethical' producers. Killing animals, perhaps, is not so important; but how they are killed and (perhaps much more importantly) how they are treated while alive are important. The status quo is cruel and unnecessary, and I think if more people educated themselves on how animals are treated in the local meat industry, they'd agree. Those of us who buy free range eggs (and I'm one of those) already recognise this to some extent, so it's just a question of applying that logic more broadly.

So, that's something I should probably start doing, if I have the willpower for it. But does it go far enough? I certainly agree with those who say that human consumption of meat is no longer necessary; that we have plenty of available alternatives that we can live on and have a healthy, financially sustainable diet. Do we need, then, to be killing animals at all? Isn't killing a sentient mammal in the prime of its life still wrong on some level? But where do you draw the line? Is even vegetarianism far enough? Should we stop using animal products altogether?

These are all questions that I have no solid answer for at the moment, but I'd like to hear your views. Do you think I should become a vegetarian? And, if you're not, what would it take for you to become one?

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mandy Sagittarius



Joined: 03 Jun 2001
Location: Glen Iris

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:39 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

No. Just no.
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Joined: 17 Mar 2003


PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:43 pm
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Aha.
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nomadjack 



Joined: 27 Apr 2006
Location: Essendon

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:51 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi David, as the parent of a teenage vegetarian I would strongly caution against it. My 17 year old hasn't eaten meat or anything containing animal products (that require death or suffering of the animal - she's not actually vegan) such as gelatine or rennet for about 4 years because of ethical reasons. It's a major commitment to make and is surprisingly difficult (who new so many friggin products contain bits of dead animals?)...has made cooking in our house friggin complex. Just being opposed to animal cruelty on a 'normal' level - which most of us are - is probably not going to be be enough of a motivation to sustain the commitment longterm.
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luvdids Sagittarius



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Location: work

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:54 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

Humans are meat eaters. That's why we have the teeth we have.

I don't think there'd be many people that aren't anti cruelty to animals, so that reason for becoming a vegetarian isn't really valid. Many people (me included) are disgusted by animal cruelty yet eat meat. However, if I knew my meat was coming from one of the cows on the news not long ago (the live export stories) I probably wouldn't eat it. I guess I just assume the meat I'm eating was killed humanely - or I don't think about how it was killed at all.

I do remember visiting a girlfriend at her family farm many years ago, patting their gorgeous little calf called Bugle. Next time we went to visit, as we were eating a BBQ lunch, her dad said "how's Bugle?" Shocked We were eating the cow I'd patted last time - I stopped eating straight away and couldn't eat any more. Strange that it was all good until I knew exactly what I was eating.
I can't eat any meat if you can tell it was alive though - like gnawing on bones, meat with veins (like drumsticks - gross!!), fish with eyes, little birds whole on the plate. If it's just a slab of meat, that's fine. But I am weird.

I guess you just have to realise that the animals we eat are bred for that purpose - that's their lot in life. If you don't eat it, someone else will.

Also don't get the pescatarians - my sister's one, doesn't make sense. Why is seafood not included??
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 1:55 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

nomadjack wrote:
Hi David, as the parent of a teenage vegetarian I would strongly caution against it. My 17 year old hasn't eaten meat or anything containing animal products (that require death or suffering of the animal - she's not actually vegan) such as gelatine or rennet for about 4 years because of ethical reasons. It's a major commitment to make and is surprisingly difficult (who new so many friggin products contain bits of dead animals?)...has made cooking in our house friggin complex. Just being opposed to animal cruelty on a 'normal' level - which most of us are - is probably not going to be be enough of a motivation to sustain the commitment longterm.
Hi there nomadjack. That David is a cool dude.
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think positive Libra

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Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 3:10 pm
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luvdids wrote:
Humans are meat eaters. That's why we have the teeth we have.

I don't think there'd be many people that aren't anti cruelty to animals, so that reason for becoming a vegetarian isn't really valid. Many people (me included) are disgusted by animal cruelty yet eat meat. However, if I knew my meat was coming from one of the cows on the news not long ago (the live export stories) I probably wouldn't eat it. I guess I just assume the meat I'm eating was killed humanely - or I don't think about how it was killed at all.

I do remember visiting a girlfriend at her family farm many years ago, patting their gorgeous little calf called Bugle. Next time we went to visit, as we were eating a BBQ lunch, her dad said "how's Bugle?" Shocked We were eating the cow I'd patted last time - I stopped eating straight away and couldn't eat any more. Strange that it was all good until I knew exactly what I was eating.
I can't eat any meat if you can tell it was alive though - like gnawing on bones, meat with veins (like drumsticks - gross!!), fish with eyes, little birds whole on the plate. If it's just a slab of meat, that's fine. But I am weird.

I guess you just have to realise that the animals we eat are bred for that purpose - that's their lot in life. If you don't eat it, someone else will.

Also don't get the pescatarians - my sister's one, doesn't make sense. Why is seafood not included??


Nah your not wierd, I think a lot of us are like that, just don't want to equate the slab with the reality!

I reckon I could give up meat, I love steak but could forgo it, it's that pesky bacon that gets me, just love bacon

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stui magpie Gemini

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Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:37 pm
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Your call. Won't. Make any difference to anytging but if it makes you feel good then whatever.

Only thing to consider, of You're going to give up meat you need to find an alternate source of protein. Otherwise your health will suffer.

Me, I like meat. I've killed animals and eaten them before, but I prefer it when someone else does the messy work.

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watt price tully Scorpio



Joined: 15 May 2007


PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 6:42 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it's one of the most moral, ethical & healthy things you can do. Go for it.

I was vegetarian (& ate fish) for nearly a year a few years ago.

Of all things Bunnings snags got me!

If I was a Miyyionairre I would employ a chef to cook vegan meals.

It's morally right, it's ethically right, environmentally brilliant & it's much healthier than meat eating.

Go for it.

We need out abattoirs to be placed in the midst of the city & suburbs with amplifiers & speakers on & built out of glass.

Anyway, pass me the skinny latte with the chardonnay chaser Wink

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Brenny 



Joined: 05 Apr 2011
Location: Westpac Centre

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:36 pm
Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest David, you sound like the type of guy who should go vegetarian then may end up going vegan.

I'm neither because I love meat and I wear leather and so on.

Me I'm a hypocrite, I love meat but I loathe horse racing and even dog shows because I think they are cruel to animals. I never tell anybody this. I also think sport fishing is barbaric and I'd even like to shoot people who hunt because I'd like them to experience the pain they are putting animals through.

As I said, because I am a hypocrite, I never put these views to people or tell them they are wrong or even discuss them.

From what I read above, I'd go vegetarian if I were you and then consider being vegan. If you love meat too much, like I do, then don't even consider it.

When I eat meat however, I almost cry and it hurts because I think of what that poor animal has gone through. I actually feel bad... But it tastes so good!


Last edited by Brenny on Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Wokko Pisces

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Joined: 04 Oct 2005


PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 8:38 pm
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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:28 pm
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Lol, Wokko.

Brenny and others, I should probably note here that I do really like meat. I don't actually eat that much of it nowadays because I usually share meals with Lola, but I do crave it now and then. If I didn't like it my decision would probably be a lot easier.

Whether or not I become a vegetarian, I think my first step should be at least to refuse to eat meat from non-ethical sources (i.e. factory-farmed sources; most fast-food places and cheap kebab shops). Does anyone know a cheap/reliable means of sourcing 'ethical' meat? (I'm guessing it's usually labelled 'organic').

If this process ends up in me not being able to consume smoked salmon, I will be very sad. Sad

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pietillidie 



Joined: 07 Jan 2005


PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:35 pm
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Don't fall for the perfectionism trap and think it's either 100% or nothing. How about ditching as much of the the red meat as you can first, giving you a significant win in a number of areas with minimal fuss?
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stoliboy Cancer



Joined: 15 Aug 2003
Location: Sydney, NSW

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:36 pm
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Go vegetarian David.

It seems you have been putting a lot of thought into it and you are almost there.

There are so many reasons to go vegetarian, that you may end up becoming one for a mixture of reasons.

1. Better for the environment (less resources to produce veg food vs meat)
2. Better for your health
3. Better for the animals (not suffering or feeling pain, or dying)
4. Force you to try new foods (when meat isn't the centre piece of every meal you will experiment with new foods)

If you are unsure about your willpower, try and plan it out. What are your favourite dishes/meals? Can you find a substitute?

As for the football... no more meat pie at the game but what else could you eat? - http://www.mcg.org.au/Events/Public%20Catering.aspx

Also these vegetarian cafes in Melbourne are great:
*Lentil as Anything, St Kilda, Abbotsford, Preston, Footscray - http://lentilasanything.com/?page_id=165
*Vegie Bar, 380 Brunswick Street, Fitzroy - http://vegiebar.com.au

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David Libra

I dare you to try


Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda

PostPosted: Tue Mar 25, 2014 10:45 pm
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Thanks Stoliboy. I already frequent and enjoy both those places (particularly the Lentil as Anything at Abbotsford Convent!). Trippy Taco in Collingwood is another good one. And I make an excellent vegan chilli con carne. Very Happy

OK, I think I'm going to try it for a month and see. No meat of any kind for all of April. It'll be a good challenge if nothing else. Smile

I'll post about my progress in this thread.

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