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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | | Redlight wrote: | | AN_Inkling wrote: | | I'm no Buckley hater but have always been a handover hater. It was a dumb move that may have cost us a premiership. |
We have to consider that 'the deal' may actually have been the catalyst for the 2010 flag. It certainly seemed to stir MM and the club into action at the time.
His own manager said that they knew exactly what the deal was, were perfectly happy with it and had signed willingly. He would've been an elder statesman of the game and an all time legend of this club if he'd stuck to the agreement that he made.
But he didn't, did he?
I think Mick just expected the Pies to fall at his feet after the flag as if the cup would erase everything that had come before. I think the fact that they didn't set MM on the course to vindictiveness and bitterness.
I don't buy into the idea that Bucks is coach now because Eddie is infatuated with him. I love Eddie and what he's done for the club, but I 'm also confident that Eddie would burn Bucks in an instant if he thought Nathan was a threat to the McGuire legacy at Collingwood.
Eddie and the board obviously thought that Mick had reached his use-by-date (a view that also had quite a bit of currency in the football world at the time) and, wisely, they worked out a strategy for the future. That's what I expect them to do.
Collingwood replaced the outgoing coach with a candidate who was the hottest property in coaching at the time. It's not as if Collingwood was Buckley's only option.
Given how Mick has gone since there's very little evidence that they were wrong. It was only that one bounce that evaded Milne that temporarily saved Mick and his reputation. That win also helped disguise the disgracefully selfish way Malthouse behaved in 2011. Mick cost us that flag and he managed to do it with the best side we've had in my memory. If we hadn't won one in 2010 I think the football world, and Collingwood fans in particular, would've crucified Malthouse that very evening in 2011 at the MCG.
In five years time Buckley will be a success or failure, as any new coach will be, but whatever happens I think the board's reasoning at the time of the deal was very, very sound. |
This is the other way to look at it, but not one that washes with me, mostly because I see our 2010 win as the culmination of a consistent build over many years, not as a result of the handover deal. And luck in Grand Finals? It happens. Even the Cats needed some to beat the Saints. We were the best team over the season though and put ourselves in the position to win it, there's no need to downplay anything we did that year just because the Saints could have won.
And I see Mick's success or not at Carlton as irrelevant. Different team, different circumstances. There's no doubt that what he was doing at Collingwood in 2011 was working. It was one of our best seasons ever, and without some key injuries late, we could have won that flag. There's no real reason to suggest we couldn't have been competitive again in 2012. Even under Bucks we came relatively close, and that's taking into account an adjustment period with a new coach and a decent amount of injuries.
We can look at it from all different angles, but the one thing for me that's irrefutable: in 2010 and 2011 we were either the best team or one of the two best teams in the comp. It does not sit well with me that we decided to change coach at that point. Flirting with the unknown just when you've hit on a perfect sweet spot makes no sense at all. Granted, the handover deal was done before then, but that was one of the mistakes of it. We had a good list that was building, and knew a Premiership was possible, this was not a time to handover. Just imagine if we'd won in 2010 and 2011 as we so nearly did? The handover would have looked even sillier.
Post handover, things really could not have gone much worse. We were not able to keep Mick on as DOC. We were not able to manage a smooth transition, as say a Sydney or Geelong did, because the new coach wanted changes. Again, this is not the ideal handover type situation. We then lost key players, seemingly because the new coach wanted changes and set our Premiership clock back even further.
Now I'm happy for Bucks to make changes, whether that's in game plan, culture, players or off-field staff. But that's not how to manage the handover of a team that was at the top. To be any chance of staying at or near the top in the short term, you need a seamless transition, you've been handed a ready made team, the idea is to run with it not against it. Maybe we tried that and failed in 2012 so rethought the situation, I don't know. But the transition, in the immediate term, was a failure. Buckley was not signed on for a rebuild, but near term success. What we all hope is that the medium to longer term transition, where Bucks now has his own team, goes much better. |
100% with you dude, exactly how I see it. I'm also not 'anti-buckley' but I am anti foolishness. I don't want Bucks to fail more then any other true Pies supporter, but it would be foolish to continue blindly down the winding path, when presently all we've seen from upstairs, has so far been sub par (all things considered).
Hopefully this trend won't continue beyond this year and we can all be a happy family again 
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All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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People do realise the succession plan was put in place in 2009 and not 2010 or 11.
Contracts were signed, contracts were honored.
Move on and get behind the current coach of Collingwood.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Pies4shaw 
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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Well, I think you are anti-Buckley. Here's your very first post on this board from 26 September 2013:
| The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | | KK it's coming - I'm a long time Pies supporter, like a lot of us here obviously - I've joined the site 'TODAY' for one reason, and one reason alone - to help start seeing to the removal of this 'farce' with which we now find ourselves in - yes that one, the one being mostly swept under the carpet by people who can't see the woods through the trees - yes its the 'Buckley/Eddie fantasy apocalypse dynasty of mediocrity' and if you don't believe that then tell me one AFL coach presently employed who would have done worse then Buckley did in the last 2 years, or one club that would employ him as their head coach... even at half price - lets not kid ourselves, Buckley is an excellent assistant coach but if he talks one more time about stats... I could get my 10 yr old son to show him up on that DEPARTMENT - he is not employed to be good at stats - he's employed to win games and win flags - nothing more, nothing less - now I understand I am but a grain of sand, or maybe even just a drop of water... but grains of sand and drops of water do add up, and together they gain weight - welcome to the beginning of the end... |
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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TBWCW is just another spain alias.
It's pretty obvious to me.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| swoop42 wrote: | People do realise the succession plan was put in place in 2009 and not 2010 or 11.
Contracts were signed, contracts were honored.
Move on and get behind the current coach of Collingwood. |
Wonder if they said the same thing about Nero in Rome..?!?
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All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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The Boy Who Cried Wolf
Joined: 26 Sep 2013
Location: We prefer free speech - you know it's right
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | Well, I think you are anti-Buckley. Here's your very first post on this board from 26 September 2013:
| The Boy Who Cried Wolf wrote: | | KK it's coming - I'm a long time Pies supporter, like a lot of us here obviously - I've joined the site 'TODAY' for one reason, and one reason alone - to help start seeing to the removal of this 'farce' with which we now find ourselves in - yes that one, the one being mostly swept under the carpet by people who can't see the woods through the trees - yes its the 'Buckley/Eddie fantasy apocalypse dynasty of mediocrity' and if you don't believe that then tell me one AFL coach presently employed who would have done worse then Buckley did in the last 2 years, or one club that would employ him as their head coach... even at half price - lets not kid ourselves, Buckley is an excellent assistant coach but if he talks one more time about stats... I could get my 10 yr old son to show him up on that DEPARTMENT - he is not employed to be good at stats - he's employed to win games and win flags - nothing more, nothing less - now I understand I am but a grain of sand, or maybe even just a drop of water... but grains of sand and drops of water do add up, and together they gain weight - welcome to the beginning of the end... |
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Yep anti fail, because we deserve better, and so far, it is still the apocalypse dynasty of mediocrity - I stand by that statement 100% because I'm yet to see otherwise (mind you, I'll give you this - his last press conf was easily his best yet, and I did grow a tiny bit more faith).
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All Aboard!! Choo Choo!!! |
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Redlight
Joined: 11 Jun 2009
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| AN_Inkling wrote: | This is the other way to look at it, but not one that washes with me, mostly because I see our 2010 win as the culmination of a consistent build over many years, not as a result of the handover deal. And luck in Grand Finals? It happens. Even the Cats needed some to beat the Saints. We were the best team over the season though and put ourselves in the position to win it, there's no need to downplay anything we did that year just because the Saints could have won.
And I see Mick's success or not at Carlton as irrelevant. Different team, different circumstances. There's no doubt that what he was doing at Collingwood in 2011 was working. It was one of our best seasons ever, and without some key injuries late, we could have won that flag. There's no real reason to suggest we couldn't have been competitive again in 2012. Even under Bucks we came relatively close, and that's taking into account an adjustment period with a new coach and a decent amount of injuries.
We can look at it from all different angles, but the one thing for me that's irrefutable: in 2010 and 2011 we were either the best team or one of the two best teams in the comp. It does not sit well with me that we decided to change coach at that point. Flirting with the unknown just when you've hit on a perfect sweet spot makes no sense at all. Granted, the handover deal was done before then, but that was one of the mistakes of it. We had a good list that was building, and knew a Premiership was possible, this was not a time to handover. Just imagine if we'd won in 2010 and 2011 as we so nearly did? The handover would have looked even sillier.
Post handover, things really could not have gone much worse. We were not able to keep Mick on as DOC. We were not able to manage a smooth transition, as say a Sydney or Geelong did, because the new coach wanted changes. Again, this is not the ideal handover type situation. We then lost key players, seemingly because the new coach wanted changes and set our Premiership clock back even further.
Now I'm happy for Bucks to make changes, whether that's in game plan, culture, players or off-field staff. But that's not how to manage the handover of a team that was at the top. To be any chance of staying at or near the top in the short term, you need a seamless transition, you've been handed a ready made team, the idea is to run with it not against it. Maybe we tried that and failed in 2012 so rethought the situation, I don't know. But the transition, in the immediate term, was a failure. Buckley was not signed on for a rebuild, but near term success. What we all hope is that the medium to longer term transition, where Bucks now has his own team, goes much better. |
I respect your position and your argument but I think your memories of Mick at the time the transition was agreed are a bit rosier than mine. The transition deal wasn't made in 2010 when we were flying, or 2011 for that matter. It was made in 2009, a season that would end with us being bundled out of the finals with spectacular ease by Geelong. A humiliating 73 point thrashing as I recall.
At the end of that year I was glad that we had a transition plan in place. No one thought Mick was 'Super Coach' then.
Mick hadn't won a flag in 10 years, I seem to remember it being said that it was a record stay by a coach at a single club without winning a premiership. The club had given Mick the best available resources, free-reign and a decade to win us a flag. They even engineered a respectful way for both parties to move on that allowed Mick a generous and graceful exit from coaching.
Remember it's a deal he agreed with, one that probably seemed very sweet at the time. I reckon if we'd moved Mick on at the end of 2009 he wouldn't have got a gig at another club. People thought of Sheedy and Malthouse in the much the same way back then, both were perceived to be old fashioned and not suited to the modern game.
After the deal Mick suddenly started moving favourite sons like O'Bree to the seconds and promoting kids. Suddenly we were recruiting seriously for a ruckman. I don't think it unreasonable to think he'd had a fire lit underneath him.
With more great recruiting in 2011 we had a remarkable season. However Mick was at the helm during, not just the depressing loss in the GF, but also during that catastrophic final game where Geelong destroyed us by 96 points.
Mick was the still the Senior Coach then. I think it's odd to blame Eddie or Bucks for how that season played out. Or is Mick only wholly responsible for the successes?
Looking back 2011 was clearly the peak of that group of players and even with that team Malthouse couldn't deliver a flag.
No-one can deny that 2012 and 2013 were cruelled by injuries to our best players and then retirements. There's no reason to believe that MM would've done any better given our horrendous luck, but some evidence that he might've done worse. After all he's the gun super-coach who has actually taken a side backward from where it was when Brett Ratten was coaching it.
That's like some kind of evil coaching miracle.
I'd also argue that Buckley is duty bound to make changes, and to keep on making them. If he hadn't it's highly likely that we'd be suffering much worse than we are now.
In the 2012/13 seasons I saw plenty of injuries, plenty of effort, plenty of pride and plenty of kids. If Bucks couldn't coach or had 'lost the players' we would've dropped away like a rock. Instead I've seen us in 2014, during a rebuild, play three games. We've been smashed by a grand finalist, bounced back with a gutsy win against a well-regarded Sydney and then lost narrowly in another fighting effort. This isn't an unmotivated team without focus or intensity, it's a team in transition.
Is Buckley a great coach? No one knows. Can he coach? I'd say the evidence is firmly in favour of the 'yes' column at the moment. |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| I think like Mick Buckley has his mates as well. As with all coaches if he can't put his friendships aside then it needs to be managed and I don't think we have the staff capable of managing Buckley. |
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collie dog
RIP Shelby 11-10-13
Joined: 07 Jun 2010
Location: Shelby Christmas dog
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| swoop42 wrote: | | LOL at jack_spain aka collie dog defending RR. |
Jack Spain would never defend RR. I will! How about you guys grow a pair and allow people to have differing opinions on Nicks for a change? 
I'm getting tired of every time someone posts a comment different to yours, you clowns accuse us of being a troll or Jack Spain. 
Grow up the lot of you!
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Rain or hail, I wag my tail |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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| collie dog wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | | LOL at jack_spain aka collie dog defending RR. |
Jack Spain would never defend RR. I will! How about you guys grow a pair and allow people to have differing opinions on Nicks for a change?
I'm getting tired of every time someone posts a comment different to yours, you clowns accuse us of being a troll or Jack Spain.
Grow up the lot of you! |
Exactly, if you want to hold hands and have sing alongs there's a site called Bigfooty, there's lots of sunshine and lollipops too.
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Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
You like this. |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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| Of course, any time any of the "we hate the coach" brigade wanted to put up a post with fresh content, rather than rehashing the same tired old tripe, that would be fine, too. It is almost as annoying as the rubbish posted in the "we hate Cloke because he's leaving" thread a couple of years back. We all know how spot-on those contributions proved to be. |
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swoop42
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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| Defender wrote: | | collie dog wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | | LOL at jack_spain aka collie dog defending RR. |
Jack Spain would never defend RR. I will! How about you guys grow a pair and allow people to have differing opinions on Nicks for a change?
I'm getting tired of every time someone posts a comment different to yours, you clowns accuse us of being a troll or Jack Spain.
Grow up the lot of you! |
Exactly, if you want to hold hands and have sing alongs there's a site called Bigfooty, there's lots of sunshine and lollipops too. |
Another troll fail.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Pies4shaw
pies4shaw
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
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I don't think Defender's a troll - but he's certainly been posting on the question of the coaching "handover" for a while. This is Defender's second post (from 12 February 2010):
| Defender wrote: | If we lose 2 in a row it'll be because of the coaching arrangment, nothing surer.
example.
headline...TROUBLE AT COLLINGWOOD
there is growing tension down at collingwood because of the current coaching arrangment, sources say the tension between mick and bucks is growing by the day and is having an impact on the players, blahblahblah. |
Funny how it turned out (despite the dire predictions) not to affect 2010 but (according to The Select Few Who Know) it's been the problem every year since!  |
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Bob Sugar
Joined: 11 Feb 2010
Location: Benalla
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| swoop42 wrote: | | Defender wrote: | | collie dog wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | | LOL at jack_spain aka collie dog defending RR. |
Jack Spain would never defend RR. I will! How about you guys grow a pair and allow people to have differing opinions on Nicks for a change?
I'm getting tired of every time someone posts a comment different to yours, you clowns accuse us of being a troll or Jack Spain.
Grow up the lot of you! |
Exactly, if you want to hold hands and have sing alongs there's a site called Bigfooty, there's lots of sunshine and lollipops too. |
Another troll fail. |
Everybody knows I only troll on the weekends.
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Defender...........
On the day before the first, Daicos created God.
You like this. |
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Member 7167
"What Good Fortune For Governments That The People Do Not Think" - Adolf Hitler.
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Location: The Collibran Hideout
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | I don't think Defender's a troll - but he's certainly been posting on the question of the coaching "handover" for a while. This is Defender's second post (from 12 February 2010):
| Defender wrote: | If we lose 2 in a row it'll be because of the coaching arrangment, nothing surer.
example.
headline...TROUBLE AT COLLINGWOOD
there is growing tension down at collingwood because of the current coaching arrangment, sources say the tension between mick and bucks is growing by the day and is having an impact on the players, blahblahblah. |
Funny how it turned out (despite the dire predictions) not to affect 2010 but (according to The Select Few Who Know) it's been the problem every year since! |
Come on Pies4shaw. Don't let history and facts get in the way of an opportunity to disparage our coach / skills coaches/ team / board and/or Eddy. |
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