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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Corruption in the union movement is minor in the overall scheme of things. There are a couple of unions which need a good, cold water enema, but by and large they are hard-working, effective organisations.
Corruption within the Liberal-aligned business community, on the other hand, is at epidemic proportions, and growing worse day by day. Nothing is done.
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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I'd be in favour of a royal commission into the corruption of big businesses as well Tannin!
I just want consistency and transparency on these matters and most importantly to weed out corruption from both sides.
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Tannin wrote: | Corruption in the union movement is minor in the overall scheme of things. There are a couple of unions which need a good, cold water enema, but by and large they are hard-working, effective organisations.
Corruption within the Liberal-aligned business community, on the other hand, is at epidemic proportions, and growing worse day by day. Nothing is done. |
What if something were done? |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| HAL wrote: | | What if something were done? |
Well, for starters, HAL, I'd walk backwards barefoot to Darwin singing Eskimo Nell.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| You may be wondering if this is a person or a computer responding. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | David wrote: |
For all the problems with the Royal Commission, I don't think you can possibly put it in the same category as Abbott's 'national security' laws.
The latter fundamentally change the nature of Australian society; the former is essentially a glorified dirt-finding exercise, of the kind that both parties employ on a regular basis and candidates in preselection campaigns use against each other.
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I disagree, putting your political opponents on trial with-out charges is what people like Stalin Hitler did to shore up their hold over the people.
If you can't see that I pity you! |
Hyperbole, I 'm afraid. There is much evidence of corruption in the union movement and a Royal Commission is not a trial at all, let alone an extra-judicial proceeding of Stalinist or Hitlerite nature. If you cannot see the difference, then you will not recognise real tyranny if it comes.
The RC has been hopelessly contaminated by the cack-handed use of a political placeman. It should probably now be disbanded as a result, or reconstituted under a new Commissioner. That does not mean it should not have been commissioned. There were ample grounds for doing so, and no Labour Government, with its in-built institutional links to the unions, could ever take it on.
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| Mugwump wrote: | | 3.14159 wrote: | | David wrote: |
For all the problems with the Royal Commission, I don't think you can possibly put it in the same category as Abbott's 'national security' laws.
The latter fundamentally change the nature of Australian society; the former is essentially a glorified dirt-finding exercise, of the kind that both parties employ on a regular basis and candidates in preselection campaigns use against each other.
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I disagree, putting your political opponents on trial with-out charges is what people like Stalin Hitler did to shore up their hold over the people.
If you can't see that I pity you! |
Hyperbole, I 'm afraid. There is much evidence of corruption in the union movement and a Royal Commission is not a trial at all, let alone an extra-judicial proceeding of Stalinist or Hitlerite nature. If you cannot see the difference, then you will not recognise real tyranny if it comes.
The RC has been hopelessly contaminated by the cack-handed use of a political placeman. It should probably now be disbanded as a result, or reconstituted under a new Commissioner. That does not mean it should not have been commissioned. There were ample grounds for doing so, and no Labour Government, with its in-built institutional links to the unions, could ever take it on. |
Trial...noun
1.
a formal examination of evidence by a judge, typically before a jury, in order to decide guilt in a case of criminal or civil proceedings.
I don't know about you but when a judge puts on his wig, calls witnesses, forces them to testify and punishes them if they are found in contempt is by any definition a trial.
Trial by media
a phrase to describe the impact of television and newspaper coverage on a person's reputation by creating a widespread perception of guilt or innocence before, or after, a verdict in a court of law.
The Government has blatantly and relentlessly used the media coverage of this circus to try and damage the good name of Labour leaders with this politically motivated witch-hunt.
That IS what despotic Governments do to distract the public away from what really matters, the future of this great country! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| 3.14159 wrote: | | Mugwump wrote: | | 3.14159 wrote: | | David wrote: |
For all the problems with the Royal Commission, I don't think you can possibly put it in the same category as Abbott's 'national security' laws.
The latter fundamentally change the nature of Australian society; the former is essentially a glorified dirt-finding exercise, of the kind that both parties employ on a regular basis and candidates in preselection campaigns use against each other.
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I disagree, putting your political opponents on trial with-out charges is what people like Stalin Hitler did to shore up their hold over the people.
If you can't see that I pity you! |
Hyperbole, I 'm afraid. There is much evidence of corruption in the union movement and a Royal Commission is not a trial at all, let alone an extra-judicial proceeding of Stalinist or Hitlerite nature. If you cannot see the difference, then you will not recognise real tyranny if it comes.
The RC has been hopelessly contaminated by the cack-handed use of a political placeman. It should probably now be disbanded as a result, or reconstituted under a new Commissioner. That does not mean it should not have been commissioned. There were ample grounds for doing so, and no Labour Government, with its in-built institutional links to the unions, could ever take it on. |
Trial...noun
1.
a formal examination of evidence by a judge, typically before a jury, in order to decide guilt in a case of criminal or civil proceedings.
I don't know about you but when a judge puts on his wig, calls witnesses, forces them to testify and punishes them if they are found in contempt is by any definition a trial.
Trial by media
a phrase to describe the impact of television and newspaper coverage on a person's reputation by creating a widespread perception of guilt or innocence before, or after, a verdict in a court of law.
The Government has blatantly and relentlessly used the media coverage of this circus to try and damage the good name of Labour leaders with this politically motivated witch-hunt.
That IS what despotic Governments do to distract the public away from what really matters, the future of this great country! |
I can only suggest you (i) read up on what a Royal Commission is, and how it is different from a criminal or civil trial ; and (ii) then read some history of the trials conducted by Stalin and Hitler (google either Freisler and/or Vyshinsky as shortcuts). Abbott runs a nasty government, and theyve screwed this RC up as they do most things. That neither makes this particular RC unwarranted in itself, nor does it justify hysteria based on casual history.
I agree with you, though, that it is a great country and that Australia deserves a better government than this one.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Mugwump wrote: | | 3.14159 wrote: | | David wrote: |
For all the problems with the Royal Commission, I don't think you can possibly put it in the same category as Abbott's 'national security' laws.
The latter fundamentally change the nature of Australian society; the former is essentially a glorified dirt-finding exercise, of the kind that both parties employ on a regular basis and candidates in preselection campaigns use against each other.
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I disagree, putting your political opponents on trial with-out charges is what people like Stalin Hitler did to shore up their hold over the people.
If you can't see that I pity you! |
Hyperbole, I 'm afraid. There is much evidence of corruption in the union movement and a Royal Commission is not a trial at all, let alone an extra-judicial proceeding of Stalinist or Hitlerite nature. If you cannot see the difference, then you will not recognise real tyranny if it comes.
The RC has been hopelessly contaminated by the cack-handed use of a political placeman. It should probably now be disbanded as a result, or reconstituted under a new Commissioner. That does not mean it should not have been commissioned. There were ample grounds for doing so, and no Labour Government, with its in-built institutional links to the unions, could ever take it on. |
You've accused 3 of hyperbole yet used hyperbole in your accusation:
There is not much evidence of corruption in the union movement. That is a sweeping generalization & you should be careful with the words you use. The RC is not examining all unions. That is boloney, with all due respect.
This is simply a political exercise designed to embarrass the ALP. Even handedness would suggest that business should be equally examined. The fact that Fairfax & The ABC expose the Commonwealth bank & now 7/11 says it all, that is, business is not being treated the same way. Do both & I'm 100% supportive.
The fact that this government got rid of red tape (the means to check on business compliance in many areas) is testimony to not only perceived bias but actual bias.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| watt price tully wrote: |
There is not much evidence of corruption in the union movement. |
Oh dear. What colour is the sky on your planet?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ Your understanding of hyperbole seems to be as robust as 3's understanding of the difference between an Australian Royal Commission and a Stalinist Show trial.
Not much evidence of corruption in the union movement ? HSU. CFMEU. AWU. Thompson, Maitland, McDonald, Williamson, Wilson, Blewitt. I dealt with unions in Australia for a number of years, and I'm sorry but their standards of governance and conduct are too-often shameful. Back through the Painters and Dockers, the BLF, and the CFMEU, but reaching into the service unions such as the HSU, there is ample evidence of a corrupt culture in many (not all) unions. It's well worth a Royal Commission, and Labour will never hold one because of their inherent conflict of interest on the matter.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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^ Is that piddly little list the best you can do? Strewth! Anyone with a half-hour to spare could come up with a far longer list of vastly bigger and more evil scams out of the business community for every single year of the 40-year span you are concatenating, including this year - and it's only September!
Just in the last couple of days we have seen the exposure of a massive conspiracy to defraud powerless, frightened workers on the part of an Australia-wide network of dodgy businessmen backed by a massive multinational corporation. Nobody has even bloody mentioned it!
Get a sense of perspective. This week's business fraud alone is probably bigger than all of the tiddly little union ones put together, and certainly more harmful in its consequences to the victims.
_________________
�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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http://www.vice.com/en_au/read/everything-we-know-so-far-about-7-eleven-australias-wage-fraud-scandal
http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/7eleven-wage-fraud-coverup-from-head-office-20150828-gjahrc.html
http://www.sbs.com.au/yourlanguage/hindi/en/article/2015/08/29/7-eleven-staff-exploited-claims-investigation
http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/7eleven-stores-in-strife-20150830-gjayp2.html
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2015/08/29/senate-should-probe-7-eleven-claim-greens-0
http://www.smh.com.au/business/workplace-relations/7eleven-a-sweatshop-on-every-corner-20150827-gj8vzn.html
And I love this one:
http://www.sbs.com.au/comedy/article/2015/08/31/7-eleven-offers-unprecedented-24-hours-day-wage-rorting?cid=trending
Convenience store chain 7-Eleven has announced plans to distinguish itself from competition by offering comprehensive wage rorting around the clock, 7 days a week.
Our loyal customers look to the 7-Eleven brand for convenience and that convenience comes at a price, a 7-Eleven spokesperson told The Backburner. It turns out customers also hate price and we hate losing money, so weve decided to take it out on our employees.
The strength of our company depends on 3 simple things: firstly, that people will want to smash a pie at 2 in the morning, secondly, that people desperate for money will work ridiculous hours for very little, and lastly, no one will notice a nationwide chain of stores systematically breaking the law to save money.
That may sound bad but its not our fault, I cant believe a few rogue franchises that constitute more than 60% of our stores would all do this, what a crazy coincidence that had absolutely nothing to do with us or how the company operates.
We are outraged at the actions of this tiny majority, although extremely impressed at their profit margins. Well done, those awful monsters. Keep up the good terrible work.
Employees of the chain have expressed surprise at the development, although not huge amounts of surprise:
At first I was shocked, but then when I thought about how I worked 60 hours last week and can barely afford rent, it all sort of fell into place, said one employee, who wished to remain anonymous in case they found out and decided to pay him even less somehow.
I guess its reasonable, theres a lot of people out there who want to buy some smokes and some Pringles after theyve had 25 beers and really should be going home, or those weirdos who do their grocery shopping at 7-Eleven at midnight because they spent all day watching YouTube videos about reptilians and have very low standards for what counts as food.
Youd think if you were a giant multinational company you would probably wear the costs of those opening hours yourself but I mean, sure, you could just absorb it by criminally underpaying a bunch of people with no other options as well. I guess that seems cool.
Edit: PS: why isn't there even a thread on this? I think I'll cross-post it.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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^Precisely, Tannic One.
The received nonsense on this is due to a massive ideological and coverage bias. As I've always argued, until someone can give me corruption and waste levels in big business, I've got nothing with which to compare governments and unions. Perhaps unions are 14.7294% less corrupt; who the hell knows?
This is a general behavioural physics problem turned into a utopian religious fantasy about business on the one hand, and other organisations on the other. It really is a cult, which is not to say unions aren't cults, but get the freaking analysis at least vaguely rational.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Tannin wrote: | ^ Is that piddly little list the best you can do? Strewth! Anyone with a half-hour to spare could come up with a far longer list of vastly bigger and more evil scams out of the business community for every single year of the 40-year span you are concatenating, including this year - and it's only September!
Just in the last couple of days we have seen the exposure of a massive conspiracy to defraud powerless, frightened workers on the part of an Australia-wide network of dodgy businessmen backed by a massive multinational corporation. Nobody has even bloody mentioned it!
Get a sense of perspective. This week's business fraud alone is probably bigger than all of the tiddly little union ones put together, and certainly more harmful in its consequences to the victims. |
I was waiting for the "what about the business community" deflection. if you can define the case for action and terms of reference to meet it, we can address whether that seems justified or not.
I strongly doubt, however, whether an inquiry into the largest businesses in the country would disclose the same evidence of top-level embezzlement, links to organised crime or extra-legal intimidation that has long been evident in large unions. The pressure of regulation and commercial competition acts as a natural check on that.
I'm sure you'll find a number of 7-11s among the million or so businesses in Australia. If you think an RC might get to the root of that, then fill your lawyers' boots.
In addition, though many businesses may support the Liberal Party, there is nothing like the formal constitutional links that exist between the union movement as a movement, and the Labour Party. Labour needs to sever its links with the union movement if it is to be a modern political force unbeholden to specific sectional interests.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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