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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Post subject: How viable is democracy in Asia? |  |
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This is a continuation of an earlier discussion from a few weeks back. PTID, I'd be particularly interested in your thoughts on this article (accepting your caveat that 'democracy' is no homogenous phenomenon):
https://theconversation.com/asian-democracy-still-an-oxymoron-22089
| Quote: | East Asia is such a famously heterogeneous place that there is no simple explanation for democracy’s mixed fortunes in the region. However, my colleague Ben Reilly has persuasively argued that in Southeast Asia’s case, at least, proximity to China might have something to do with it.
It is no coincidence, Reilly suggests, that Indonesia and the Philippines are the great hopes for Southeast Asian democracy, while the much closer mainland states like Vietnam and Cambodia have found it hard to escape China’s authoritarian influence.
This thesis may not be a complete explanation of regional political development, but even if it’s only part of the answer it assumes great importance because China is, as they say, on the rise. China’s historical influence over the East Asian region has been immense and is currently being renewed. Its significance as a regional role model is, therefore, especially significant. |
Perhaps most importantly, what do the people of China (and other 'undemocratic' countries)—if we can somehow reduce the desires of the majority of well over a billion people to an identifiable sentiment—want?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Only a thought bubble but there may be some incompatibility between Confucianism and democracy. I have done a bit of reading on this and filial piety, or respect , even worship of parents and ancestors also extends to the same respect for the state or the leader. While Confucianism isn't 'practiced', you can still look at a meta socialogical impact, much like the 'protestant work ethic' in Europe. Some in China have said that Western culture became ascendant in large part due to Christianity and the philosophies underpinning it.
Democracy doesn't seem to work so well when it is forced or pressured on a society. White Europeans were under absolute monarchies until quite recently and yet we expect other cultures to have the same epiphanies our cultures had in the time frames we expect. Only 60 years ago the world burnt as Nationalism, Democracy and Communism fought for ascendance, hopefully Asia, The Middle East or Africa don't need to fight the same wars. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Post subject: Re: How viable is democracy in Asia? | |
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| David wrote: | This is a continuation of an earlier discussion from a few weeks back. PTID, I'd be particularly interested in your thoughts on this article (accepting your caveat that 'democracy' is no homogenous phenomenon):
https://theconversation.com/asian-democracy-still-an-oxymoron-22089
| Quote: | East Asia is such a famously heterogeneous place that there is no simple explanation for democracy’s mixed fortunes in the region. However, my colleague Ben Reilly has persuasively argued that in Southeast Asia’s case, at least, proximity to China might have something to do with it.
It is no coincidence, Reilly suggests, that Indonesia and the Philippines are the great hopes for Southeast Asian democracy, while the much closer mainland states like Vietnam and Cambodia have found it hard to escape China’s authoritarian influence.
This thesis may not be a complete explanation of regional political development, but even if it’s only part of the answer it assumes great importance because China is, as they say, on the rise. China’s historical influence over the East Asian region has been immense and is currently being renewed. Its significance as a regional role model is, therefore, especially significant. |
Perhaps most importantly, what do the people of China (and other 'undemocratic' countries)—if we can somehow reduce the desires of the majority of well over a billion people to an identifiable sentiment—want? |
Isn't it the People's Democratic Republic of Korea & of China too?
Kim Jong-un thinks it's entirely compatible.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough†Kinky Friedman |
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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I'm certainly willing to consider alternatives to democracy, but I'm not sure how appetising Cuba is:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba#Human_Rights
| Quote: | | The Cuban government has been accused of numerous human rights abuses including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions (also known as "El Paredón"). The Human Rights Watch alleges the government "represses nearly all forms of political dissent" and that "Cubans are systematically denied basic rights to free expression, association, assembly, privacy, movement, and due process of law". |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Cuba
| Quote: | The Singular Systems of Vigilance and Protection (Sistema Unico de Vigilancia y Protección, SUVP) reach across several state institutions, including the Communist Party, the police, the CDRs, the state-controlled labor union, student groups, and members of mass organizations. The government calls on SUVPs to carry out surveillance and to intimidate opposition activists. Rapid Action Brigades (Brigadas de Acción Rapida, also referred to as Rapid Response Brigades, or Brigadas de Respuesta Rápida) are groups of government organized civilians that observe and control dissidents.
Migration and housing officials threaten activists with forced exile, the loss of their homes, or by imposing fines. Political fidelity is monitored at workplaces and in schools: academic and labor files (expedientes escolares y laborales) that record actions or statements that may bear on a person's loyalty are maintained for each citizen and an individual's record must be deemed acceptable before they can advance to a new school or position.
Cuba had 21 journalists in prison in 2008, placing it second only to the People's Republic of China, according to The Committee to Protect Journalists (CPJ), an international NGO. By December 2011 this number had dropped to zero, although many prisoners were forced into exile in exchange for their freedom. However, journalists continue to be at risk of imprisonment or other severe sanctions if they engage in independent reporting or commentary. The Cuban government still uses arbitrary arrests and short-term detentions to restrict freedom of assembly and expression. |
| Quote: | Cubans cannot watch or listen to independent, private, or foreign broadcasts. In 1963, using Soviet-supplied equipment, Cuba became the first nation in the Western Hemisphere to jam radio broadcasts, the apparent targets being the anti-Castro stations in the US. In 2006, Cuba jammed Radio Republica, a clandestine broadcast to Cuba on 7205 kHz. The output of the Television Network teleSUR in Cuba is subject to various restrictions.
Cubans cannot read books, magazines or newspapers unless they have been approved/published by the government. Cubans can not receive publications from abroad or from visitors. |
I know less about Venezuela — is it truly a communist country? Reading the Wikipedia article, the 'Communist' Party seems to currently be in opposition.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuela#Government_and_politics
Of course, a fair retort is, is our form of democracy really any better? I guess it's a question that depends upon what metrics you use: equality, general standard of living, lack of corruption, freedom of dissent, artistic freedom and so on. I don't think for a minute that we should be complacent about the shortcomings of our own system, but I think I'm pretty thankful I live here and not Cuba (that may change over the next couple of years!  ). When I wegh such matters, I tend to be biased toward countries where I'm less likely to be killed or imprisoned. 
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I think it would be presumptuous for any of us privileged westerners to attempt to answer that question.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| David wrote: | I'm certainly willing to consider alternatives to democracy, but I'm not sure how appetising Cuba is:
The Cuban government has been accused of numerous human rights abuses including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions (also known as "El Paredón").
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The Cuban government has been accused of many things,
mostly by the US who have commited numerous human rights abuses including torture, water-boarding, false imprisonment, supporting despots invading a new country every other year (they love learning geography) polluting whole oceans, persecuting non-Capitalists (personal and geographical) etc etc.
But IF you go there (Cuba) and ask the people "if they are happy?" the answer is invariably YES!
They have near %100 employment and though the pay maybe poor, these people don't need lots of $$$ because they aren't keyed into the "Consume at costs" style of US Capitalism.
They have food, they have cheap housing, they dance in the street in the evening and gossip about what they saw on tv last night or who said what at work etc etc.
If I went and lived anywhere other than Australia I'd choose Cuba by country mile.
There are journos in the jug but the country has been under attack by it's big bully of a neigbour since before I was born.
I can forgive them a degree of paranoia when it comes to free press and take a pinch of salt when I read reports of abuse from the US.
Your right about Venezuela, the Communists are out and the Socialists are in.
Pres Chaves (A Communist) ran the country for many years, denying the USA from buying it's huge oil reserves for a song (like they did to the Mexicans) and was loved by the people. He instituted education and jobs for all.
He died recently and they had an election and the people decided to give the rival Socialists a go. 1 party in power too long is no good for anyone.
That's what a true Communist state is, Democratic.
There are dissidents but most (not all) are disgruntled landowners or stooges from the good oil USA, up to the usual no-good tricks in a country that doesn't whorship the green back.
What I don't understand is why the USA goes out of it's way to attack and destroy communism as if it is a hell spawned Satan that will destroy the world as we westerners know it.
If citizens want to live a non Capitalist life-style what the F gives the USA the right to impose it's VETO and dump it's scrap iron on peaceful people trying to live their lives as they see fit? |
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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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SE Asian countries politics tend to be dominated by military figures, ruling families (think Marcos, Aquino, Suharto) whose sons were educated in the West and are steeped in corruption. Malaysia and Singapore are exceptions but even there the apples don't fall too far from the trees. The average SE Asian has little time for politics and largely are happy to be guided by Monarchies or religious leaders. The extended family, the daily survival of the rural poor and now hedonistic lifestyles of the city young in Bangkok etc means politics is discussed by those who have the most to gain.
In Thailand alcohols sales are banned for 2 days the weekend before (prepolling) and the weekend of the election until polling booths are closed in effort to get more people to vote. I suspect if it wasn't compulsory in Australia they would have the same problems.
In Laos I don't think people care enough to worry. The feed the monks, and get along slowly with life. In Cambodia they still bear the scars of Pol Pot.
Indonesian politics is dominated by Java. Brunei by the Sultan.
Myanmar is interesting though as being sandwiched between China, India and Thailand they see all the models. But with so many people having fled and the ethnic divides that exist the military have been able to hang on. With no moral mandate though.
I won't comment on other asian places.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| 3.14159 wrote: |
But IF you go there (Cuba) and ask the people "if they are happy?" the answer is invariably YES!
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So that's why there's nearly a million ex Cuban nationals living in the USA and 5000 more come each year as refugees??
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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| stui magpie wrote: | | 3.14159 wrote: |
But IF you go there (Cuba) and ask the people "if they are happy?" the answer is invariably YES!
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So that's why there's nearly a million ex Cuban nationals living in the USA and 5000 more come each year as refugees?? |
Most of them were supporters of Batista, a dictator that was selling the place lock, stock and barrel to the USA while terrorising any one it considered a Communist or rebel.
The ones that come now come as economic refuges.
Lured by the promises of the US to house and set them up in the land of the brave. 
some facts..
Cuba ranks high in metrics of health and education, with a high Human Development Index of 0.780 as of 2013. According to data it presents to the United Nations, Cuba was the only nation in the world in 2006 that met the World Wide Fund for Nature's definition of sustainable development, with an ecological footprint of less than 1.8 hectares per capita, 1.5 hectares, and a Human Development Index of over 0.855.
I don't pretend to know what all those numbers mean but it does suggest they doing something right, despite repeated attempts by the US to undermine the place every chance they get.
If you have the time Stui watch this ..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LoFX3uhctI |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Cheers mate, I'll watch it when I have a spare hour, but I watched the first few minutes and the commentary said that after nearly going broke as a country, capitalism is coming to Cuba and things are picking up.
I know it's only the start, but hardly a ringing endorsement of the historical regime.
Oh, as an aside, while I have never studied politics or related fields, the countires that have embraced so called communism IMO aren't. They are actually dictatorships.
This may be a different thread, but I don't believe genuine socialism or communism has ever been implemented at a country level in any level of success. What Castro put in Cuba was a benevolent dictatorship disguised as communism. IMO.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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3.14159
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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I think it was Churchill that said...
"The best form of government is a benevolent dictator. Someone with the power to rule absolutely to do whats best for his people.
'It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.' (Benevolent dictatorship not with-standing).
What is important is what they are replaced with.
My argument is that Cuban Benevolent/Democratic Communism works, the people are happy and content 9for the most part)
I think Cuba can make it's own way in the global community but still retain the best of the Cuban lifestyle.
They roll the finest cigars in the world and make the best rum.
They'll find a way of milking the Yankie dollar and retaining their freedoms.
Viva Havana.  |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| 3.14159 wrote: | Your right about Venezuela, the Communists are out and the Socialists are in.
Pres Chaves (A Communist) ran the country for many years, denying the USA from buying it's huge oil reserves for a song (like they did to the Mexicans) and was loved by the people. He instituted education and jobs for all.
He died recently and they had an election and the people decided to give the rival Socialists a go. 1 party in power too long is no good for anyone.
That's what a true Communist state is, Democratic. |
If so, I guess that takes us back to the original topic: if we can agree that democracy is generally a good thing, shouldn't we be hoping that more countries in our region embrace it?
As someone said elsewhere, if a government is so great, why not give people the chance to express their support by voting for them? The worst that could happen is that they could be kept a little more accountable. Of course, most dictators don't want this because they know that they might not be as popular or universally loved as they'd like to be.
Re: Cuba, I'm not sure what I've read is compatible with a 'benevolent' dictatorship. The government may well be popular (though, kind of hard to say for sure when dissent gets you locked up), but then so are Vladimir Putin and Kim Jong-Un. I guess all's good so long as you stay on their good side, but that's more or less the case for any repressive dictatorship.
Why are Cuban authorities so afraid of journalists and free speech, I wonder? Is it possible that all is not as rosy as it seems?
I don't for a moment support America's imperialism or interference in other countries' affairs, but their fear with Cuba was that it might be used as a pawn of the Soviet Union—which, if I'm correct, it distinctly looked like being at one stage. It wasn't communism that made America paranoid so much as Stalinism, as expressed by the equally ruthless, expansionist, not terribly 'communist' Russian superpower. In hindsight, that fear wasn't totally unjustified. As bad as, say, the McCarthy trials were, they were a picnic compared to what was happening to so-called 'enemies of the revolution' in the USSR, China, Cuba and elsewhere.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| stui magpie wrote: | | 3.14159 wrote: |
But IF you go there (Cuba) and ask the people "if they are happy?" the answer is invariably YES!
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So that's why there's nearly a million ex Cuban nationals living in the USA and 5000 more come each year as refugees?? |
go to Miami, I reckon theres that many on the beach there alone!!
and they love it!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I think most would agree that less of this kind of thing would be a step in the right direction:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/26/china-jails-activist-xu-zhiyong
| Quote: | A Chinese court has jailed leading activist Xu Zhiyong for four years for public order offences related to his role in a social justice and transparency movement.
Xu is a legal scholar and advocate who has been at the forefront of campaigns for rights in China for a decade. Several others from the New Citizens Movement which he co-founded have stood trial already or will appear on Monday.
The Beijing No 1 Intermediate People’s Court said on its microblog on Sunday morning that it had found Xu guilty of "gathering a crowd to disturb public order" following his closed-door trial on Wednesday.
The charges related to small-scale, peaceful street protests by members of the movement, calling for educational equality and for officials to declare their assets. |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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