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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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Using childcare is a poor base for a comparison. Much of it is done by women who do it in their own home whilst raising their own children. Thus one imagines that costs for rent (nil) and food (much cheaper if prepared at home) and free car parking etc for parents picking up kids etc are not factored in. My nephews wife looks after 6 or so kids and after paying initially for accreditation etc she is doing well.She makes enough to satisfy them , ok they don't need overseas holidays and a 5 bedroom McMansion with home theatre etc, and gets to see her son all day. She will never go back to working in an office. She loves it and her outlay was very small to set it up.
Old aged care is another issue. Perhaps we as a society need to look at models where parents are not shunted off to a aged care facility because it interferes with tennis, golf and spoiled kids.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Dr Pie wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Some occupations tend to appeal more to one gender than the other. |
But history suggests that pay differential reflects the gender doing the job.
Some examples - In the nineteenth century, the position of secretary was usually filled by men and had a similar status to clerks. After the development of typewriters it became a predominantly female position and dropped in status and relative pay. Bank teller was a prestigious position even after World War 2 and was predominantly a "male" job. Then as the technology changed it became mostly female and its status (and remuneration) dropped.
Until about thirty years ago, doctors were mostly male in Australia and medicine was a high prestige and lucrative career. In the Soviet Union women predominated in medicine from quite early in the twentieth century and medicine was a much lower status career.
One of the reasons I ended up leaving librarianship and going back to Uni in middle age and becoming an academic was that I looked at my salary compared to other Arts graduates and noticed how poorly librarians were paid. Librarianship is a predominantly female career. |
Interesting observation. I hadn't looked at it from that angle before.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| ronrat wrote: | Using childcare is a poor base for a comparison. Much of it is done by women who do it in their own home whilst raising their own children. Thus one imagines that costs for rent (nil) and food (much cheaper if prepared at home) and free car parking etc for parents picking up kids etc are not factored in. My nephews wife looks after 6 or so kids and after paying initially for accreditation etc she is doing well.She makes enough to satisfy them , ok they don't need overseas holidays and a 5 bedroom McMansion with home theatre etc, and gets to see her son all day. She will never go back to working in an office. She loves it and her outlay was very small to set it up.
Old aged care is another issue. Perhaps we as a society need to look at models where parents are not shunted off to a aged care facility because it interferes with tennis, golf and spoiled kids. |
The example you cited is not child care per se that I am talking about. Child care centres where staff have to be trained, credentialized etc including Kindergarten is what I'm referring to & the government in the main is referring to.
Edit: (additional)
When my kids were young the type of child care your relative is doing was called "family day care" which is not what is being discussed per se.
However, the reason why childcare / preschool / kindergarten is an important area to exemplify sexism / misogyny is because the area has traditionally not been valued & recognised as it ought to be - it is as you know a female dominated area of employment.
Prime Minister Gillard made sure that the Government went some way to recognise the important some might say vital work being done here.
The Mad Misogynist Miners Monk in one fell swoop has denied women this.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman
Last edited by watt price tully on Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:49 am; edited 1 time in total |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Dr Pie wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | Some occupations tend to appeal more to one gender than the other. |
But history suggests that pay differential reflects the gender doing the job.
Some examples - In the nineteenth century, the position of secretary was usually filled by men and had a similar status to clerks. After the development of typewriters it became a predominantly female position and dropped in status and relative pay. Bank teller was a prestigious position even after World War 2 and was predominantly a "male" job. Then as the technology changed it became mostly female and its status (and remuneration) dropped.
Until about thirty years ago, doctors were mostly male in Australia and medicine was a high prestige and lucrative career. In the Soviet Union women predominated in medicine from quite early in the twentieth century and medicine was a much lower status career.
One of the reasons I ended up leaving librarianship and going back to Uni in middle age and becoming an academic was that I looked at my salary compared to other Arts graduates and noticed how poorly librarians were paid. Librarianship is a predominantly female career. |
Interesting observation. I suppose it makes sense that, in the years before equal pay for equal work, jobs perceived to be "women's work" were undervalued. I wonder if that still happens today to the same extent, though.
Putting gender issues aside for a moment, would you say aged care and childcare work have traditionally been underpaid (beyond fundamental beliefs regarding wage stratification between the very rich and very poor)?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Morrigu 
Joined: 11 Aug 2001
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David - aged care nurses ( when they used to employ trained nurses) have always been paid less than nurses working in the public system
This I have never understood - the skills required to provide good quality care for the aged are extensive and the support and services readily available limited in comparison to what is available to those in the public health system
They should be paid more - it is a tougher job and of that I have no doubt at all
Society needs to stop whining about material crap that is irrelevant and start actually caring rather than just paying lip service to " caring" for their most vulnerable members - the young and the old!
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“The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.” |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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Well if the old Liberals are the exemplars of misogyny & sexism what hope is there for the young liberals?
Their arrogance knows no bounds.
The great Kinkster (Kinky Friedman) used to say that cats were more conservative than young republicans. He might stop at young Libs.
The young Libs make the Mad Misogynist Monk look like a new age sensitive guy (if that's not too 80's for you) 
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/misogynist-rants-from-young-libs-20140809-3dfhw.html
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Kids these days don't seem to have the understanding that
1. What goes on the internet is there permanently, even so called "Private" messages can come back to bite you.
2. Things you might say to your mates at the bar, or around the XBox while you have some drinks are NOT things you can repeat under your own name on the internet.
I just shake my head whenever things like this come up, like there was no connection with the words typed out and their possible meaning to someone else or how they can be used later. Presumably Young Libs are angling for a political career, with comments like this in the public domain, these people are now stuck as advisors or staffers, they will never see public life. One stupid comment has essentially killed their careers.
As a bit of a sidebar on that, there is a backlash building against anti male sentiment and other typically leftist social justice viewpoints including it seems the permissive nature of our current society ('sluts' seem to be a particularly common term used in these derogatory postings). This is the visible tip of the iceberg of the resentment among particularly young men towards how they perceive society views them. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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^ I know, women are always asking for it, aren't they. 
These are young Adults not children, the future leaders of the Liberal party.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| watt price tully wrote: | | ^ I know, women are always asking for it, aren't they. |
I'm making a meta analysis on society and you devolve it to a personal attack. That's beneath you.
And University students are kids. I did a year recently at La Trobe and even 3rd year students are still like children. There's a reason kids are staying home into their 20s, we're not letting them grow up. |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Wokko wrote: | | watt price tully wrote: | | ^ I know, women are always asking for it, aren't they. |
I'm making a meta analysis on society and you devolve it to a personal attack. That's beneath you.
And University students are kids. I did a year recently at La Trobe and even 3rd year students are still like children. There's a reason kids are staying home into their 20s, we're not letting them grow up. |
With all due respect:
You're stating you're providing a meta analyis, not withstanding the joke however your rationale logically & obviously is informed by your opinions (call me captain obvious). Your opinions have invariably been anti anything remotely resembling the most basic of feminism.
You've excused appalling behaviour due to a so called backlash by a privledged few because amongst other things they are children.
Sorry doesn't wash.
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Appalling behaviour? These are leaked private messages. They're stupid, ill informed things to be saying in hard copy but beyond the perennially offended there are few who will even bat an eyelid. You're grasping for things to hate conservatives for, and some nasty private messages about Germaine Greer or some unnamed girls in a bar from idiot Uni kids just isn't something that moves the needle for me.
I'm far more interested in what creates such vitriol and hatred, and to call men and boys 'privileged' shows the position you're coming from. My bias simply reflects yours, so a holier than thou attitude is the last thing you should be spouting. |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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Let's be honest who hasn't thought that way about Greer at one time or another.
LOL.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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watt price tully
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| Wokko wrote: | Appalling behaviour? These are leaked private messages. They're stupid, ill informed things to be saying in hard copy but beyond the perennially offended there are few who will even bat an eyelid. You're grasping for things to hate conservatives for, and some nasty private messages about Germaine Greer or some unnamed girls in a bar from idiot Uni kids just isn't something that moves the needle for me.
I'm far more interested in what creates such vitriol and hatred, and to call men and boys 'privileged' shows the position you're coming from. My bias simply reflects yours, so a holier than thou attitude is the last thing you should be spouting. |
University of Melbourne young Liberals not privileged 
WTF? You need to get out the cave a bit more often.
It's not whether they're named or not on facebook or wherever, it's having those opinions in the first place. The women in the Liberal party continue to have a lot to look forward to (not) More of the same
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Given the fact that these were private conversations, it's not the behaviour that's appalling; it's the mindset it betrays. Of course, anyone who is familiar with Young Liberals in general will hardly be surprised.
The other story here of course is the fact that private statements are being used to wreck careers. That will never sit well with me. It's not even about the privacy so much as the need to separate individual from role. So long as he or she can separate his prejudice from his or her duties (which of course means treating constituents, colleagues and community leaders with genuine respect), there's no reason in theory why a misogynist, racist or homophobe shouldn't make for an excellent MP.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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partypie
Joined: 01 Oct 2010
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| What concerns me most is that these future leaders are stupid |
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