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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
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O don't think that last bit is necessary. Too much of that here lately.
I also think just looking at him, it's a fair assumption that his friends and family are all from, well, a fairly rough lifestyle!
Bt as they say, never judge a book by its cover, you never know someone til you meet them. Or where they are from.
I haven't said anything personal about him. For me, it's more keeping sport sport, and leaving other shit out of it. Bt we have gone to far now I guess, political correctness is everywhere. I'm not particularly bothered by it, my kids are old enough that if their "hero" did it I would be able to explain it properly. If the media had not put the spotlight on it, as with other cases I have mentioned, it would be a nothing story. Unfortunately the media seem to hang on any little negative these days. I can however understand that a section of the community might be offended, or even hurt to some extent by it. Victims of crime and their families. But then it Seems to me you can't do anything without offending someone these days. I'm all for a this ones for you thing, but maybe have your own private signal next time!
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| 1061 wrote: | Once Martin became an AFL footballer he accepted the role of "role model" that automatically comes with the AFL Footballer tag. So he has a responsibility to uphold that standard and he knows those who are in charge at AFL house have deemed that "jailhouse salute" to be out of place on an AFL field of play.
Doesn't matter if we on the terraces or those playing disagree with the AFL stance Martin has been warned before so therefor he has to be punished. |
Just read this.
And while I have always agreed in the past the rules are the rules, gees, this smacks of something out of The Hunger Games!
Scary
Have to admit I find it funny that they highlight this and other things, yet every time a player misses the goals, they zoom in for the close up, and you don't need to be as good at lip reading as I am to make out "F&@k"!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| 1061 wrote: | Once Martin became an AFL footballer he accepted the role of "role model" that automatically comes with the AFL Footballer tag. So he has a responsibility to uphold that standard and he knows those who are in charge at AFL house have deemed that "jailhouse salute" to be out of place on an AFL field of play.
Doesn't matter if we on the terraces or those playing disagree with the AFL stance Martin has been warned before so therefor he has to be punished. |
Re: the bold part, I've written a fair bit on this in the past, but suffice it to say I find the 'role model' claim to be highly dubious. I'm not alone, either:
http://magpies.net/nick/bb/viewtopic.php?t=69755
(the links in the first post are all mostly from academic studies.)
As for the rest, it smacks a little of the 'rules are rules' rhetoric that I see a lot of on here. How would you feel if the AFL instituted a rule that you considered to be totally unreasonable (feel free to suggest anything you can imagine—say, preventing them from contacting friends or family members that they didn't approve of)? And if you think that players should always just suck it up and do what they're told, how would you feel about such a rule being instituted in your own workplace?
| think positive wrote: | | I'm not particularly bothered by it, my kids are old enough that if their "hero" did it I would be able to explain it properly. |
I really wish more people thought this way. See something problematic on TV? Rather than panic that their children's innocent minds might have been corrupted, they would do so much better to use it as an opportunity to explain something. It seems elementary enough for me.
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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This is even a topic? Wow!
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | Once Martin became an AFL footballer he accepted the role of "role model" that automatically comes with the AFL Footballer tag. So he has a responsibility to uphold that standard and he knows those who are in charge at AFL house have deemed that "jailhouse salute" to be out of place on an AFL field of play.
Doesn't matter if we on the terraces or those playing disagree with the AFL stance Martin has been warned before so therefor he has to be punished. |
Re: the bold part, I've written a fair bit on this in the past, but suffice it to say I find the 'role model' claim to be highly dubious. I'm not alone, either:
http://magpies.net/nick/bb/viewtopic.php?t=69755
(the links in the first post are all mostly from academic studies.)
As for the rest, it smacks a little of the 'rules are rules' rhetoric that I see a lot of on here. How would you feel if the AFL instituted a rule that you considered to be totally unreasonable (feel free to suggest anything you can imagine—say, preventing them from contacting friends or family members that they didn't approve of)? And if you think that players should always just suck it up and do what they're told, how would you feel about such a rule being instituted in your own workplace?
| think positive wrote: | | I'm not particularly bothered by it, my kids are old enough that if their "hero" did it I would be able to explain it properly. |
I really wish more people thought this way. See something problematic on TV? Rather than panic that their children's innocent minds might have been corrupted, they would do so much better to use it as an opportunity to explain something. It seems elementary enough for me. |
ah yes, but my kids are nearly 18, the other is 19, I maybe wouldn't have enjoyed explaining it if they were 9 or 10. I know you don't like hearing it, but it really is different when you have your own kids. like with tv, there are certain things they just don't need to see early on, and it may not be what you think. dramas were the parents are in a nasty divorce can be more damaging than that a car smash sometimes.
have to say though, I don't think I would have been bothered by the salute so much, I think the media made to much of it, (if the camera had just let it go, would it be even noticed by the crowd?) but I thought the Goodes thing was way over the top (I think he really should have handled it better) as with anything, there is always going to be someone offended. it must be incredibly hard to lose someone in a vicious crime, you wouldn't wish it on anyone. whos to know what will remind them of it? the last year since Mum died I have a lot more understanding of the pain of losing someone. yes she died of a natural disease, but it was a terrible end, and strange things just jolt you. I see someone old and frail stumble, I see my mum. the old drunk stumbling along, looks like mum when she had the brain tumour. mothers day. that was fun. and this is just a normal situation everyone goes through. if my Mum had had something awful cause her death, I cant even imagine living like that. id be walking on eggshells, worried were the next barb would come from.
ill go a step further, bad language. nobody swears like me!! so ive had to explain that early!! I have been trying to stop swearing. so now and again, I watch something I know will piss me off and let rip!!! like a geeeeeeelong game. or Cameron ling. or read the MRP thread on big footy.
all im saying is I see both sides of it. cheers 
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| think positive wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | Once Martin became an AFL footballer he accepted the role of "role model" that automatically comes with the AFL Footballer tag. So he has a responsibility to uphold that standard and he knows those who are in charge at AFL house have deemed that "jailhouse salute" to be out of place on an AFL field of play.
Doesn't matter if we on the terraces or those playing disagree with the AFL stance Martin has been warned before so therefor he has to be punished. |
Just read this.
And while I have always agreed in the past the rules are the rules, gees, this smacks of something out of The Hunger Games!
Scary
Have to admit I find it funny that they highlight this and other things, yet every time a player misses the goals, they zoom in for the close up, and you don't need to be as good at lip reading as I am to make out "F&@k"! |
I posted that to play devils advocate because I assume this is how Vlad and Co @aflhouse.com would be thinking. I don't agree 100% but do in some small part because I imagine he knew what he was getting into when he signed his contract. He can't claim ignorance.
The lip reading thing is a worse look I agree but the Vlads of this world don't seem to care about that. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | as with anything, there is always going to be someone offended. it must be incredibly hard to lose someone in a vicious crime, you wouldn't wish it on anyone. whos to know what will remind them of it? the last year since Mum died I have a lot more understanding of the pain of losing someone. yes she died of a natural disease, but it was a terrible end, and strange things just jolt you. I see someone old and frail stumble, I see my mum. the old drunk stumbling along, looks like mum when she had the brain tumour. mothers day. that was fun. and this is just a normal situation everyone goes through. if my Mum had had something awful cause her death, I cant even imagine living like that. id be walking on eggshells, worried were the next barb would come from. |
I think that's a really excellent post, and a good reason for why we shouldn't use this as a reason to police others' behaviour. Trauma can be triggered in so many ways. The focus, in my view, should be wholly placed on giving people the support to deal with it on a personal level rather than knocking down statues and ripping down billboards.
BTW, Tannin, I think once we get beyond the more seemingly superficial aspects of the story, this is an important argument to have.
| 1061 wrote: | | I don't agree 100% but do in some small part because I imagine he knew what he was getting into when he signed his contract. He can't claim ignorance. |
I'd usually argue against that view, but, in this case it's unnecessary—I doubt that anything like this would have been in the sort of contract he signed. Although I hate to think what is nowadays.
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King Monkey
Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Location: On a journey to seek the scriptures of enlightenment....
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| David wrote: |
| King Monkey wrote: | | How would you feel if you or someone very close to you was a victim of one of Dusty's incarcerated mates David?? |
One of two things: I would a) due to my now heavily biased perspective, get outraged at any public reference to my assailants and, if given the chance, try to make Dustin feel like a bad person for thinking of them or b) much more healthily, try to get on with my own life and live and let live. For my own sake, I hope I'd choose b).
That's an absurd hypothetical, though. For one thing, any response whatsoever would necessitate a) knowing who Martin's referring to (how could I really be certain?) and b) even noticing his gesture and making the association. Do you realise that, if it hadn't been for the media's sensationalisation of it (replays, news stories, TV analysis), pretty much nobody watching at the game or on TV would have even noticed?
That's one of the deeper ironies about stuff like this. People like Luke Darcy go on TV and pontificate about it, saying it's "not a good look" and so on, when it's his station and his fellow journalists who have chosen to make a big deal out of it. If you're sincerely worried about 'the kids', I think you're pointing the finger in the wrong direction. |
Ha, I have an "angle" this time!! 
I acknowledge the improbability and absurdity of that hypothetical, I asked for a reason though......
Firstly - thanks for directly answering a direct question. 
Secondly - I probably would have shared your view on this going back to my early 20's, (maybe not as feverishly), but a combination of growing up and having kids has one gaining extra perspective.
I think you go off half-cocked a lot of the time without acknowledging any merit in perspectives other than your own, or indeed you may not have taken them into account. (That's a general statement on some of my discussions with you, not intended in a nasty way though. I love a good respectful disagreement, but it gets frustrating when 1 party just refuses to acknowledge an opposing view may have a smidgeon of merit, even if not agreeing with it.)
The AFL has basically given this one the - "it's not a massive deal in the scheme of things, but we'd prefer this not to take place" - a reasonable position for them to take.
You let this one slide, the next guy gives a little sneaky gang symbol, the next guy openly displays a gang affiliation, and so on....... When is it time to say enough is enough?? Nip it in the bud straight away, and you don't need to worry about it getting a little more serious in the future.
And the explaining it to kids thing - whilst yes I agree it is certainly the job of the parents to explain and guide etc, - by the AFL not allowing cart blanche on these sort of things, it makes the job of a parent a little smoother when telling little Johnny not to be displaying this kind of behaviour - along the lines of the kid saying, "why can't I do it Dad? The AFL players are allowed to."
(Mate, if you think it should be OK for 8-9 year olds to be giving jail-house symbols and the like to celebrate goals on a Sunday morning, I sincerely hope you don't procreate!  )
My overall view on the topic sits somewhere in the middle, I sort of agree with some aspects of both sides of the argument.
At the end of the day, it is probably an unnecessary thing to be doing if the people that pay your wages would prefer you not to do it.
_________________
"I am a great sage, equal of heaven.
Grow stick, grow.
Fly cloud, fly.
Oh you are a dee-mon, I love to fiiight." |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| King Monkey wrote: | | (Mate, if you think it should be OK for 8-9 year olds to be giving jail-house symbols and the like to celebrate goals on a Sunday morning, I sincerely hope you don't procreate! ) |
As opposed to playing cowboys and indians and pretending to shoot each other? Thank God kids never do that!
I'm sorry if I've ever given the impression that I don't respect your views. I actually appreciate those who are willing to engage in debates quite a lot, and I think your perspectives are every bit as valid as mine. Perhaps I'm too intent on arguing the point to vocalise that, but that's genuinely how I feel.
In this case, I understand your opinion but probably disagree with most of it. I don't agree with you re: the slippery slope of 'gang symbols', because I think that's a markedly different phenomenon that could be easily dealt with on its own merits if it ever occurred. As I've pointed out earlier in the thread, this symbol has far more in common with tapping a black armband, pointing to the sky, pointing to the stands, etc. (all expressions that I hope we can agree are quite valid).
I also think I understand why the AFL are 'taking a stance' on this, but I think you're being far too generous to them—at the end of the day, it's about neurotic PR dependency founded upon the desire to avoid potentially negative headlines in the tabloids. You may think that's a valid concern (and many others would), but I find it quite a disturbing trend. Everything about it says 'control'.
As for the children—because it so often comes back to that—I think you may be overstating the harm that such behaviour can actually cause. So a kid copies the jailhouse salute at school or at Auskick: so what? It's quite meaningless and, I would have thought, rather harmless in the scheme of things. As mentioned above, they're already copying what they see and hear on TV, most of which is much worse, so it's a massive stretch to imagine that something as small as this is going to have profound consequences.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | as with anything, there is always going to be someone offended. it must be incredibly hard to lose someone in a vicious crime, you wouldn't wish it on anyone. whos to know what will remind them of it? the last year since Mum died I have a lot more understanding of the pain of losing someone. yes she died of a natural disease, but it was a terrible end, and strange things just jolt you. I see someone old and frail stumble, I see my mum. the old drunk stumbling along, looks like mum when she had the brain tumour. mothers day. that was fun. and this is just a normal situation everyone goes through. if my Mum had had something awful cause her death, I cant even imagine living like that. id be walking on eggshells, worried were the next barb would come from. |
I think that's a really excellent post, and a good reason for why we shouldn't use this as a reason to police others' behaviour. Trauma can be triggered in so many ways. The focus, in my view, should be wholly placed on giving people the support to deal with it on a personal level rather than knocking down statues and ripping down billboards.
BTW, Tannin, I think once we get beyond the more seemingly superficial aspects of the story, this is an important argument to have.
| 1061 wrote: | | I don't agree 100% but do in some small part because I imagine he knew what he was getting into when he signed his contract. He can't claim ignorance. |
I'd usually argue against that view, but, in this case it's unnecessary—I doubt that anything like this would have been in the sort of contract he signed. Although I hate to think what is nowadays. |
shit David that's the third post of mine you've liked this week!
one of us is going soft.
im afraid 
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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King Monkey
Joined: 15 Apr 2009
Location: On a journey to seek the scriptures of enlightenment....
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| David wrote: | | King Monkey wrote: | | (Mate, if you think it should be OK for 8-9 year olds to be giving jail-house symbols and the like to celebrate goals on a Sunday morning, I sincerely hope you don't procreate! ) |
As opposed to playing cowboys and indians and pretending to shoot each other? Thank God kids never do that!
I'm sorry if I've ever given the impression that I don't respect your views. I actually appreciate those who are willing to engage in debates quite a lot, and I think your perspectives are every bit as valid as mine. Perhaps I'm too intent on arguing the point to vocalise that, but that's genuinely how I feel.
In this case, I understand your opinion but probably disagree with most of it. I don't agree with you re: the slippery slope of 'gang symbols', because I think that's a markedly different phenomenon that could be easily dealt with on its own merits if it ever occurred. As I've pointed out earlier in the thread, this symbol has far more in common with tapping a black armband, pointing to the sky, pointing to the stands, etc. (all expressions that I hope we can agree are quite valid).
I also think I understand why the AFL are 'taking a stance' on this, but I think you're being far too generous to them—at the end of the day, it's about neurotic PR dependency founded upon the desire to avoid potentially negative headlines in the tabloids. You may think that's a valid concern (and many others would), but I find it quite a disturbing trend. Everything about it says 'control'.
As for the children—because it so often comes back to that—I think you may be overstating the harm that such behaviour can actually cause. So a kid copies the jailhouse salute at school or at Auskick: so what? It's quite meaningless and, I would have thought, rather harmless in the scheme of things. As mentioned above, they're already copying what they see and hear on TV, most of which is much worse, so it's a massive stretch to imagine that something as small as this is going to have profound consequences. |
No offence taken at all, and that's not really what I meant anyways.
More so, you tend to "go hard" and vigorously argue your points, not a bad thing at all, but to me at times, seemingly without a bigger picture, or, the whole story in mind. (we are all probably guilty of that at times I suppose though.)
Just an observation, not supposed to be a clip.
Just an example I can think of - I was trying to discuss the overall positive/negative impact(s) of Adam Goodes' actions on the community as a whole, but you kept going back to Goodes' feelings at the time as the only thing worthy to consider.
(not trying to start all that again by the way...... )
Back to the Dusty thing - surely you're not comparing a fantasy like Cowboys & Indians, to modern day gang symbolism??
I'd much rather my kids shooting rubber arrows at each other innocently, than wearing red or blue bandanas and declaring their hatred of the other colour. Or dedicating their left foot snap from the pocket to their boys in cellblock H4!!
If it were your, say, 8 year old boy celebrating goals by making jailhouse salutes, you wouldn't feel the need for a chat?????? "So what?" would be your reaction?? Really?????
Good parenting should overcome most things of this nature, but if the AFL makes it that little bit easier, then kudos to them.
Also, the PR issue is a fairly strong one if you think about it.
Whether you or I agree with it or not, the game is basically funded by sponsorship dollars, I'm sure the AFL would prefer not to give any company an excuse to pull their funds under the guise that their brand is not being represented as they'd like it to be.
I do actually agree with a bit of what you say in a sense. And I'd probably "like to" agree with more of it. It is more idealistic than realistic though.
I hate that the world is basically a PR game on a lot of levels; but unfortunately, such is life.........
_________________
"I am a great sage, equal of heaven.
Grow stick, grow.
Fly cloud, fly.
Oh you are a dee-mon, I love to fiiight." |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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If it's idealistic, I think only in the sense that opposing multinational exploitation, warfare, rape or murder are idealistic. On the one hand, it's quite true that "that's the way the world works" and that we will probably never be rid of these things, but on the other that doesn't mean that we should sit back and tolerate it. Likewise, our world of PR and political correctness may or may not be here to stay, but that's no reason not to challenge the paradigms a little bit and perhaps encourage people to fight back against some of its worst excesses.
As for children, I dunno. I'm pretty confident that I want to raise intelligent, curious people who are never afraid to ask questions or think for themselves. I don't really believe in sheltering children from challenging topics, so I wouldn't be threatened by the idea of them knowing that a place like jail exists. If they're doing Dustin Martin jailhouse gestures at Auskick, I'd probably guess that they're copying something they saw on TV or at school. If it meant they were somehow identifying with prisoners or thinking that jail was cool, that might make for a good discussion (just like it would if they thought guns were cool). That's my view, anyway.
By the way, I still don't even see that as being in the same ballpark as making 'gang' signs or whatever—it's just a totally different thing. Not sure why you're bringing it up!
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Tannin
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| David wrote: | | BTW, Tannin, I think once we get beyond the more seemingly superficial aspects of the story, this is an important argument to have. |
OK. I don't know why there is even a post on this, never mind a topic, never mind a whole argument, and I'm not confident that reading eight pages of David vs King Monkey with assorted cameos by Various Artists will leave me any the wiser. Apart from anything else, you two will probably be polite to one another at least half the time, and where's the fun in that?
So OK, let's assume that it's an important argument. In that case, let me know when you have had it and it's safe to go back in the water. It's been a busy week and I'm going to bed.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Slight transition on topic, this is a pretty good article about the effect on children of one of the parents being sent to prison. I'm not an emotional person but I found this depressing. I recommend you read it, form your own opinions.
| Quote: | Something is missing. Outside the hamburger chain restaurant, traffic shudders along the highway. Inside, the hiss of a deep fryer, the pucker and spit of bacon and thawed beef patties. And something harder to define – an absence.
In fact, there is more than one absence on this particular day in this particular restaurant in 2004. But right now what is missing is the sound of children laughing. And this is odd, because today is a six-year-old boy's birthday party.
Michael's* mother has sent 11 invitations on specially printed paper to his prep classmates. She wanted to make it his big day, his first birthday as a schoolchild. But only one of his friends has come to his party.
Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/sins-of-the-fathers-20130917-2tvry.html#ixzz2fULJW8VG |
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Great article, Stui, thanks for posting. I hope others who posted in this thread read it.
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