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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Pa Marmo wrote: | | David wrote: | | Well, that's marginalisation for you. |
Wake up boy, they marginalized themselves when they broke the law. |
I was actually talking about their children being marginalised—i.e., Jo was saying that she would encourage her kids to avoid kids like that at school, which is pretty much the dictionary definition of marginalisation. In any case, yes, criminals and ex-criminals are marginalised too, and there are many reasons why that's bad for them and bad for wider society. But perhaps that's a matter for another thread.
(BTW, Every time you call me 'boy' I imagine I'm getting a lecture from an old impressively-bearded African-American man.  )
| King Monkey wrote: | | How would you feel if you or someone very close to you was a victim of one of Dusty's incarcerated mates David?? |
One of two things: I would a) due to my now heavily biased perspective, get outraged at any public reference to my assailants and, if given the chance, try to make Dustin feel like a bad person for thinking of them or b) much more healthily, try to get on with my own life and live and let live. For my own sake, I hope I'd choose b).
That's an absurd hypothetical, though. For one thing, any response whatsoever would necessitate a) knowing who Martin's referring to (how could I really be certain?) and b) even noticing his gesture and making the association. Do you realise that, if it hadn't been for the media's sensationalisation of it (replays, news stories, TV analysis), pretty much nobody watching at the game or on TV would have even noticed?
That's one of the deeper ironies about stuff like this. People like Luke Darcy go on TV and pontificate about it, saying it's "not a good look" and so on, when it's his station and his fellow journalists who have chosen to make a big deal out of it. If you're sincerely worried about 'the kids', I think you're pointing the finger in the wrong direction.
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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With one daughter only 4weeks from the end of school life, and one already done with it, i was more suggesting as a boyfriend! Although admittedly, when one was chummy with the best friend of Carl Williams daughter, I didn't incourage the relationship!
I do agree if the media didn't carry on about it it would hardly rate a mention, also the goodes incident, the infamous Blair hand gesture, etc etc all blown way out of proportion. Nothing like a scandal to sell papers.
Gees David, your last word on it has kind of been extended!
Reel me in spinner! 
Cheers 
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| 1061 wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | | We all have different standards we live by, how dare any of us impose our standards on another human being. Who do we think we are? |
Yeah right! How DARE we don't recognise paedophiles, rapists, murderers, thieves, and frauds etc as really decent human beings with acceptable societal standards...  How dare we impose jail sentences on these poor souls with different standards to us............  |
Well I believe people make mistakes and that these mistakes should not be held against them for the rest of their lives but do not get me wrong pedophiles have an exception to my rule. I think you bringing that element into the argument shows a lack of understanding of Martins message and that darker side of society. |
I work as a Social worker mate and see the darker side of society every damn week.
I just get upset at the totally ignorant, blinkered, silly new age thinking that sees these bloody arseholes as making "mistakes"..  Believe you me, most of these dirty bastards (I did say most) don’t make mistakes, they are brutally planned attacks and they deserve every bit of jail time they get... 
You wouldn’t ever want to be at the end of some of these so called “mistakes”…. |
Look I don't know you from a bar of soap but it sounds like you are a bit disillusioned.
I work in the community sector myself. |
Very happy to debate anytime on PM mate as I have over 35 years of experience working in the community. Yes you are right, I am totally disillusioned with the soft system that we have, and releasing parolees at will to re- commit crimes they never really acknowledged remorsefully or paid the full price for. I dealt with aresholes abusing young kids for years and I can write a bloody book about their motives, grooming and planning methods involving young kids.
I care alright, I care every bloody day but unlike you, I care only for the victims of crime, not MOST of the perpetrators (again I said most) who are just rotten, evil people I wouldn’t piss on if they were on fire. They will all end up in hell.
BTW, these people don’t make mistakes; this is just a bullshit myth. They make informed choices without caring a damn for the consequences of their actions on the victims, society or, in fact, themselves....
Happy to debate more on PM anytime you like dude. |
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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| Quote: | | Do you realise that, if it hadn't been for the media's sensationalisation of it (replays, news stories, TV analysis), pretty much nobody watching at the game or on TV would have even noticed? |
really?! extraordinarily naive statement.
i was at the game and at the time i saw it mentioned it to the people i was with. they saw it too. it wasn't very hard to notice.
then, it was always going to be seen when the replay of the goal (and resulting "celebration") was shown on the big screens.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Um, did my post get deleted? I'm sure I posted a response to Lazza's comment. 
And yes, JW, a replay on the big screen will probably help.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Lazza wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | 1061 wrote: | | We all have different standards we live by, how dare any of us impose our standards on another human being. Who do we think we are? |
Yeah right! How DARE we don't recognise paedophiles, rapists, murderers, thieves, and frauds etc as really decent human beings with acceptable societal standards... How dare we impose jail sentences on these poor souls with different standards to us............ |
Well I believe people make mistakes and that these mistakes should not be held against them for the rest of their lives but do not get me wrong pedophiles have an exception to my rule. I think you bringing that element into the argument shows a lack of understanding of Martins message and that darker side of society. |
I work as a Social worker mate and see the darker side of society every damn week.
I just get upset at the totally ignorant, blinkered, silly new age thinking that sees these bloody arseholes as making "mistakes".. Believe you me, most of these dirty bastards (I did say most) don’t make mistakes, they are brutally planned attacks and they deserve every bit of jail time they get...
You wouldn’t ever want to be at the end of some of these so called “mistakes”…. |
Look I don't know you from a bar of soap but it sounds like you are a bit disillusioned.
I work in the community sector myself. |
Very happy to debate anytime on PM mate as I have over 35 years of experience working in the community. Yes you are right, I am totally disillusioned with the soft system that we have, and releasing parolees at will to re- commit crimes they never really acknowledged remorsefully or paid the full price for. I dealt with aresholes abusing young kids for years and I can write a bloody book about their motives, grooming and planning methods involving young kids.
I care alright, I care every bloody day but unlike you, I care only for the victims of crime, not MOST of the perpetrators (again I said most) who are just rotten, evil people I wouldn’t piss on if they were on fire. They will all end up in hell.
BTW, these people don’t make mistakes; this is just a bullshit myth. They make informed choices without caring a damn for the consequences of their actions on the victims, society or, in fact, themselves....
Happy to debate more on PM anytime you like dude. |
hehe, you should spend more time in the tavern, we need you!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I can't be arsed reading the whole thread, I'll just pick up on one point about kids who's parents are doing time.
When my kids were younger, my son knew a kid who was a nice kid,smart, and had potential but Dad was in and out of gaol for petty stuff and the kid was veering to the wrong side of the tracks.
The system got involved and moved him to my sons high school. They'd known each other in primary school, and encouraged the kid to get involved in the local junior footy club. The coaches were clued in and cut him slack and as mum didn't have a car, I volunteered to pick him up from home and drive him to away games.
geez, wasn't that fun. This was under 14's. Some mornings I'd be heading to his house and the kid would text my son saying to wait out the front, he'd be there in a minute. He'd been round the local bikie hangout with the men drinking and smoking cones all night. Ran home, grabbed his gear and jumped in the car. I'd shout him a pie before the game cos he hadn't eaten for a day and a half.
Another time, he rocked up looking like something the cat threw up, with a home done tattoo on his shoulder. Had a bandage over it but that got ripped off during the game and the other kids, on both sides, were more interested in looking at the tat and trying to work out if it was real or not than playing the game.
Anyway, he played for about half the season till Dad got out of Gaol then dropped out. Found out later he was busy in the family business, helping Dad break into cars at the local train station.
Since then, he's been in and out of gaol himself, got some bird pregnant when he was 17 and is generally headed on a 1 way ticket to shitsville.
But If I happen to bump into him in the street I'll say G'Day and he'll stop and say G'Day back. $£$%^%%$ shame how things are headed, the kid had potential. I don't regret trying, even though the little turd broke into my car one night and tried to pinch my radio because he knew I often left it unlocked. (Don't ask how I know). He was a good kid and it's a waste.
So, I don't have an issue with the gaol house salute. People want to stop people glorifying criminals, look at some of the stuff on TV.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Great post, Stui. And this is exactly why I have trouble with Lazza's assertion that crims are (mostly) "rotten, evil" people all going to "hell" (very disappointing view coming from a social worker, by the way): nobody chooses to have an upbringing like that. Sure, sure, some people make the best of it and become billionaires or whatever, but they're clearly the exceptions. Many more end up repeating the cycle.
So, what do we do to people who've had shit lives and helped damage other people's? Get some smug self-satisfaction through demonising them and further marginalising them, or—much more difficult and often unrewarding—try to help them get their lives back on track? Sadly, it seems like quite a few people on here prefer the easy option.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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- victims are entitles to social works too David, not just the perpetrators
just like prosecuters and defenders
id say anyone working with victims of crime could be forgiven a jaded outlook - the little I see on telly is enough for me, id burn out in a month
im all for helping those who just got a little side tracked, if they want to help themselves, but anyone convicted of a brutal crime, against anyone or anything, (yes animals), or those bastards going around conning old people out of their saving tc etc, can rot for mine.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ Totally, but the point of social workers is often to help the more marginalised, people from lower socio-economic backgrounds, the mentally ill, people with disorders, etc.—that is, the kind of people who are very highly represented in violent crime, sexual crime, robbery and other crime statistics. I don't for a minute think that dealing with these people is easy or that you can always have the patience of Job, but anyone who seriously thinks that most of their potential clients are "evil" and should "rot in hell" should probably give serious thought to getting a career change.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Darkstranger
Joined: 06 Jun 2012
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| From what I know ( I lived with a current Richmond player ) the x hands was for his brother in jail... involving lots of money and you know what..... Don't touch this boy with a ten foot pole... |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I suspected it might be a family relation. If so, the moral majority really need to take a good hard look at themselves.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Why?
I have closer friends than I have family. Respect should be earned by everyone.
What I mean is it should make no difference on this arguement, right or wrong, that its family.
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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To some extent I agree—if it were a close friend, it'd be equally justified—but I think there were some suggestions here and on other boards that Martin was doing a call-out for some tough blokes in prison "as a favour" or something ridiculous like that. Of course, it was always going to be far more likely someone he had a close relationship with. I guess some people like to assume the most damning possibilities in cases like these (probably says a lot about their personalities, I dare say).
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All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Mon Sep 16, 2013 10:13 am; edited 1 time in total |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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Once Martin became an AFL footballer he accepted the role of "role model" that automatically comes with the AFL Footballer tag. So he has a responsibility to uphold that standard and he knows those who are in charge at AFL house have deemed that "jailhouse salute" to be out of place on an AFL field of play.
Doesn't matter if we on the terraces or those playing disagree with the AFL stance Martin has been warned before so therefor he has to be punished. |
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