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Greening gold
Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Location: Narooma - NSW South Coast
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| jack_spain wrote: | | Greening gold wrote: | | What'sinaname wrote: | | GG - but if you count frees paid and those not paid, it's far too many to be considered by umpires and proves the rules, if they can be called rules, are too complex. |
Agree re those not paid but which rules would you remove if you were given a clean slate? It's the rules that give the game its distinctive character. A major overhaul of the rules would be akin to changing to a round ball. |
But GG a major overhaul of the rules is precisely NOT what I am calling for. Get back to the basics as MattyD rightly says. Go back to the rules as they applied for over 100 years. The problem with the current generation is they feel unless you are re-inventing the wheel you are an old fogy. Stupid.
Go back to the rules as they were originally established. Simple and straightforward. |
I get what you are saying but the game is not the same as it was. There aren't 5 lines of 3 players all staying roughly in position any more, with a 19th and 20th man and no interchange. Players run and run, space is closed around the ball yet half the ground can be unoccupied, it's much more hectic, there are zones, forward pressure, clusters, Bartel marks on the goal line in defence one minute and kicks a goal the next. The grounds aren't mudheaps any more. There used to be one umpire, then there were two, now there are three. Do you want to go back to one umpire? To the days when Peter McKenna's back was black and blue from bruising from Wes Lofts on Saturday afternoon? To the day when Neville Crowe missed a GF because that filthy knob Big Nick staged for a free and there was no replay or MRP to throw the charge out? As for old fogeys, I'm 60 and am old enough to remember watching Johnny Greening, Royce Hart, Vin Waite and Len Thompson playing their first games. I get as filthy as anybody over the inconsistencies - that is and has always been my main beef, followed closely by holding the ball/holding the man/dropping the ball - all issues involving tackling.
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If you used to barrack for the 'Pies, you never barracked for the 'Pies. |
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raymond35
Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Location: Melbourne/Gold Coast
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Amazingly good opening post by jack spain.
The most disturbing thing i've ever heard ftom gieschen is his instruction to umpires to "pay everything", thus having as much influence as possible.
The best umpired game i have seen was the 2005 grand final, only about 12 free kicks were paid to each team and they were allowed to battle it out.
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Tubeway Army 1979
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uu6MDdxBork |
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jack_spain 
Joined: 03 May 2008
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| Greening gold wrote: | | jack_spain wrote: | | Greening gold wrote: | | What'sinaname wrote: | | GG - but if you count frees paid and those not paid, it's far too many to be considered by umpires and proves the rules, if they can be called rules, are too complex. |
Agree re those not paid but which rules would you remove if you were given a clean slate? It's the rules that give the game its distinctive character. A major overhaul of the rules would be akin to changing to a round ball. |
But GG a major overhaul of the rules is precisely NOT what I am calling for. Get back to the basics as MattyD rightly says. Go back to the rules as they applied for over 100 years. The problem with the current generation is they feel unless you are re-inventing the wheel you are an old fogy. Stupid.
Go back to the rules as they were originally established. Simple and straightforward. |
I get what you are saying but the game is not the same as it was. There aren't 5 lines of 3 players all staying roughly in position any more, with a 19th and 20th man and no interchange. Players run and run, space is closed around the ball yet half the ground can be unoccupied, it's much more hectic, there are zones, forward pressure, clusters, Bartel marks on the goal line in defence one minute and kicks a goal the next. The grounds aren't mudheaps any more. There used to be one umpire, then there were two, now there are three. Do you want to go back to one umpire? To the days when Peter McKenna's back was black and blue from bruising from Wes Lofts on Saturday afternoon? To the day when Neville Crowe missed a GF because that filthy knob Big Nick staged for a free and there was no replay or MRP to throw the charge out? As for old fogeys, I'm 60 and am old enough to remember watching Johnny Greening, Royce Hart, Vin Waite and Len Thompson playing their first games. I get as filthy as anybody over the inconsistencies - that is and has always been my main beef, followed closely by holding the ball/holding the man/dropping the ball - all issues involving tackling. |
Fair enough. And I should have guessed at your age with the Greening reference. What a champion he was and how cruelly and unfairly his career was effectively ended by that O'Dea thuggery. John Greening was the most naturally talented footballer I think I have ever seen.
Yes, I understand your point, but I still think we can go back to some basics that means the umpires stay out of the way as much as possible. Stigmatising (and fining or suspending) players for acting and diving for frees is a very important part of the process. |
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Brown26
Joined: 14 Sep 2001
Location: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
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Jack Spain great post. Couldn't agree more. The more frees that are paid, the lower the bar is set for what constitutes a free kick, and the more that are missed (because the umpires just aren't good enough, for whatever reason, to pay them all). That makes it unfair, for a player, a situation or a team.
What rules would I change? I'd certainly make the rules roughly the same for the amount of contact applied. For example, You can do just about whatever you like in the ruck, or in a one on one wrestle marking contest, and get away with it. But if you touch a player in the back - touch, not push - or if Duckwood does what he does best and your upper arm brushes his head - brushes, not, well, anything else! - you get a free against you.
How is that fair? Look at the difference between Cloke and, say, Bellchambers on Anzac day. Cloke was scragged until he felt like a schoolboy at a Priest convention, Bellchambers got two VERY soft frees for "hand in the back" and "two movement push in the back." If Geishen tells me they were both technically correct, then the technicalities are flawed, and they need to be evened up. Otherwise it's "unfair".
Jack, I applaud your rant, and conclude my own 
- Ben |
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MattyD
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Location: Kew
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I'm flattered my post was quoted haha
I'm 40, so started watching footy from the late 70s. I know football has changed a lot since and a lot for the better. And even though the game wasn't perfect back then, I really don't think supporters would scream about umpires at almost every game like we seem to do now.
From my memory, it definitely wasn't every game. And we rarely commented on the standard of the umpiring. It was maybe one game a year in a crucial moment that cost us a match that we even cared.
The umps did not control the game and affect the game as much as they do now.
It is seriously out of control. They've got their hands on the whistle ready to blow at every opportunity. And as everybody keeps saying there's no consistency - especially in our games. It's ridiculous. Jolly's leg up that didn't even touch anybody - wtf? And "Calm down, Harry" - wtf? In my opinion, it's getting worse every game.
And agree with everything said about the rules committee. Peanuts the lot of them. |
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jack_spain
Joined: 03 May 2008
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^ It's definitely worse now mate. In those days I can remember occasionally going off about a decision, but today it is almost every decision has a serious question mark over it. And I'm not just talking about our games either.
Of course it doesn't help when the moron element in the crowd screams, "BALL!" whenever a player is tackled. |
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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i went to many games at vic park and left feeling that we were crucified by the umps on nearly every occasion. that sense is a lot less so these days.
a good point was rasised on the radio tonight suggesting the really good teams get away with more and get penalised less. i'd be interested to see our free kick count from 2010-2011 and that now. david, drop your silly form ladder and get on to ths important stat.
spin, the fiasco is in your head.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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jack_spain
Joined: 03 May 2008
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| John Wren wrote: | | spin, the fiasco is in your head. |
Not just mine. Ask Dyso.  |
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Hiss 
Joined: 09 Jul 2003
Location: Geelong
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| Post subject: Yes | |
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These modern umpires are nothing on the great days of Bill Dellar, Robinson, etc. They knew how to umpire a game and courageously would walk up the umpires race at Victoria Park games to have cups of urine and beer thrown at them. I vividly recall how after a final siren police horses would charge out to the umpires in a vain attempt to beat a surging booze fuelled crowd attempting to grab them. So funny. I was run down by one of those horses years ago and lost my beer. Not sure where I was running to, but once that final siren went, we charged like the Battle of the Light Brigade to reach the centre square. These umpires today are a pack of weak wiggle looking wankers. Multi coloured umpires pretending to preside over a mans game. lol what a joke. Their decisions are erratic and mostly panicked, which result in close games and quality sides being wrecked.
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I love this club and I hold anyone in contempt who does not think it is worth fighting for. |
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MattyD
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Location: Kew
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| Post subject: Re: Yes | |
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| Hiss wrote: | | These modern umpires are nothing on the great days of Bill Dellar, Robinson, etc. They knew how to umpire a game and courageously would walk up the umpires race at Victoria Park games to have cups of urine and beer thrown at them. I vividly recall how after a final siren police horses would charge out to the umpires in a vain attempt to beat a surging booze fuelled crowd attempting to grab them. So funny. I was run down by one of those horses years ago and lost my beer. Not sure where I was running to, but once that final siren went, we charged like the Battle of the Light Brigade to reach the centre square. These umpires today are a pack of weak wiggle looking wankers. Multi coloured umpires pretending to preside over a mans game. lol what a joke. Their decisions are erratic and mostly panicked, which result in close games and quality sides being wrecked. |
I remember that game at Victoria Park (there was only one, wasn't there??) haha
I thought it was awesome and well bloody deserved. They robbed us that day. From memory it was st Kilda and we lost by a point? |
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MattyD
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Location: Kew
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| jack_spain wrote: | ^ It's definitely worse now mate. In those days I can remember occasionally going off about a decision, but today it is almost every decision has a serious question mark over it. And I'm not just talking about our games either.
Of course it doesn't help when the moron element in the crowd screams, "BALL!" whenever a player is tackled. |
I think sometimes I'm just yelling "ball" cos I'm pissed off with it all and lost the plot. But don't we as a crowd anticipate the tackle a bit sometimes, almost like willing our players to get there and grab them?
I'm convinced we're getting less and less free kicks from great tackles and I honestly believe there is a discrepancy between what we get and our opponents get. I know we're sitting in the stands and not running for 30 minutes while having to make split second decisions, but it just seems so random. |
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Greening gold
Joined: 04 Jul 2011
Location: Narooma - NSW South Coast
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| MattyD wrote: | I'm flattered my post was quoted haha
I'm 40, so started watching footy from the late 70s. I know football has changed a lot since and a lot for the better. And even though the game wasn't perfect back then, I really don't think supporters would scream about umpires at almost every game like we seem to do now. |
Matty - Yes we bloody did. I can remember the MCG stands practically vibrating from the booing at some games in the 60s and early 70s.
Wikipedia won't tell me the match or the year but I remember umpire Ron Brophy being hit in the back by a half-full longneck of Fosters thrown from the crowd back in the 60s - it was one of the suburban grounds. People used to get pretty cranky. My uncle (St Kilda) would abuse the "bloody rabbits", "bloody galahs" and "bloody zombies" heartily.
Brophy's last game was Len Thompson's first - the 1965 Prelim when Essendon's John Somerville mysteriously went horizontal on the ground next to Duncan Wright (no. 33). Collingwood never picked Wright again. Lee Adamson, who had a bit of mongrel in him, got that number the next year.
I'd like to have seen Reg Devine with the whistle - he umpired from 1926 to 1933, which would have been a good era to watch footy.
And did you know the first ever field umpire appointed to officiate at a match was Henry Crapp? They've been following in his footsteps ever since.
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If you used to barrack for the 'Pies, you never barracked for the 'Pies. |
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MattyD
Joined: 19 Apr 2010
Location: Kew
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| Greening gold wrote: | | MattyD wrote: | I'm flattered my post was quoted haha
I'm 40, so started watching footy from the late 70s. I know football has changed a lot since and a lot for the better. And even though the game wasn't perfect back then, I really don't think supporters would scream about umpires at almost every game like we seem to do now. |
Matty - Yes we bloody did. I can remember the MCG stands practically vibrating from the booing at some games in the 60s and early 70s.
Wikipedia won't tell me the match or the year but I remember umpire Ron Brophy being hit in the back by a half-full longneck of Fosters thrown from the crowd back in the 60s - it was one of the suburban grounds. People used to get pretty cranky. My uncle (St Kilda) would abuse the "bloody rabbits", "bloody galahs" and "bloody zombies" heartily.
Brophy's last game was Len Thompson's first - the 1965 Prelim when Essendon's John Somerville mysteriously went horizontal on the ground next to Duncan Wright (no. 33). Collingwood never picked Wright again. Lee Adamson, who had a bit of mongrel in him, got that number the next year.
I'd like to have seen Reg Devine with the whistle - he umpired from 1926 to 1933, which would have been a good era to watch footy.
And did you know the first ever field umpire appointed to officiate at a match was Henry Crapp? They've been following in his footsteps ever since. |
Reg is my grandfather. He was mad Collingwood, maybe helped to get us all those premierships! haha
Crapp - that's funny - and a good start! 
I know the umps have always copped it but isn't it worse now? Or is it just because we all get to talk about it more often and can review them more easily?? |
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David 
to wish impossible things
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: the edge of the deep green sea
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| Post subject: Re: How to solve the umpiring fiasco. | |
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I think there are some really good points here and some that I'd disagree with:
| jack_spain wrote: | 1. Umpires are best when they are not noticed.
- Tell them to stop paying as many free kicks.
- Tell them to start calling players by their number and stop trying to be familiar by using players' names (or worse) nicknames!
- Tell them to put the whistle away when a game is on the line - let the players sort things out.
- Tell them to never second guess each other. If a goal umpire thinks it was a goal, it's a goal. Never go to video review. Better still, abolish the video review! |
I disagree with most of this. Umpires calling players by their first names is totally fine in my book—it means they can get players' attention and talk to them as human beings. Nothing wrong with that.
Suggesting they put the whistle away at the end of matches is clearly wrong. A free kick in the first minute of the first quarter should be a free kick in the final minute of the last, whether it's the Grand Final or the NAB Cup. One of the most important things we want from umpires is consistency, and this suggestion would be a step in the wrong direction.
I agree that the video replay has been misused or caused undue confusion in some instances, but I don't mind it in theory. But I agree that the relevant umpire should hold precedence—so, with that Jonathan Brown mark on Saturday that was initially called a behind by the goal umpire and then called a mark by the field umpire after the video was inconclusive, it should have reverted to the goal umpire's original call. I think the field umpire just got it wrong in that instance.
| jack_spain wrote: | 2. Only call a free kick if it is obviously an unfair tackle or push that impedes all players from getting to a contest.
- You don't need all the tiggy-touchwood definitions, like a push in the back or the side, or whether the arm is extended or not. That's sheer BS from Geischen.
- The only relevant question is whether or not a player's action was fair or unfair! |
I completely agree with this, and it's the reason why I find it endlessly frustrating when a mere touch is deemed a free. The player should always receive the benefit of the doubt. Far better that too many frees be missed than too many non-frees be paid.
| jack_spain wrote: | 3. Most of all umpires should be rewarded for paying fewer free kicks and allowing our game to flow.
You don't need the kind of technical BS that the Rules Committee is forcing on the game. The best umpires I can ever remember were those single umpires like Jeff Crouch or Don Jolley or even Ian Robinson who let the game flow and only called a free when it was completely warranted to punish something unfair. |
More or less a reiteration of the previous point. Once again, I agree completely.
| jack_spain wrote: | | When players get the idea that a free kick is somehow a REWARD, then our game is in real trouble and the divers and actors come out of the woodwork. You should not earn a free kick. A free kick exists solely as punishment for doing something unfair to your opponent. |
Excellent point, and one that ought to be nailed to the door of whatever building houses the AFL Umpires Association. Of course, they'd probably say they're already doing this, but the results suggest otherwise. Rather than directing this at the umpires—who should just know it as a mantra already—it's really time some members of the football media were reminded of this. Yes, Luke Darcy, that means you!
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"Every time we witness an injustice and do not act, we train our character to be passive in its presence." – Julian Assange |
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Larabee
Joined: 19 Apr 2008
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Pretty fair post Jack. Not much will happen I'm afraid. I think your point of umpires addressing players by numbers is very good. It's never good in any area of life to have authority overly familiar with their subservients.
I think the (obviously) main difference between past eras and now, apart from the game's speed, is the multiplicity of TV cameras. Umpires are too scared to let anything go for fear of scrutiny, hence their stopping play at any and every opportunity (eg better to penalise incorrectly rather than not do anything at all.)
Maybe the AFL should start scrutinising and suspending the footballing actors/divers for their theatrics? Can't see it happening though.
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President - Coffs Harbour Collingwood Supporters Assoc. Inc. |
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