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ronrat
Joined: 22 May 2006
Location: Thailand
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| Wokko wrote: | | (Transexuals not driving does have be bemused though, the only thing I can think is they're suicide risks, but that's a long bow to draw). |
Studies have shown that they are they are the only drivers that try to look at their hair in the mirror, answer a mobile, put on lipstick and scratch their balls at the same time.
The study was conducted by myself and the bar owner of AJs in a Thailand street as we watched the Katoeys (trannies) heading off to work in the gogo bars whilst we drank Singha over a 2 hour period last Saturday night.
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Annoying opposition supporters since 1967. |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| Could be the effects of unsupervised hormone treatment on road rage incidents or manic driving. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| Wokko wrote: | Russia is looking at the degeneration of society in the west and has decided they don't want to head down that path, or at least arrest it while they think they still can. I think they're misguided in their approach, but why is it BAD that a society wants to maintain the traditional values they hold rather than descend into hedonism and destruction of family and sexual morality? I don't have an answer on how they can obtain that outcome and I'd think they're more likely to go too far than not, but their motives appear sound. We think we're so enlightened and superior in Western countries and want to push our own (lack of) morality and values on others. Maybe societies with unfettered sexuality are ultimately suicidal and we're heading for the scrap heap of history, we're certainly not going to see it coming until too late, but why are we SO sure that we're right and they're wrong?
(Transexuals not driving does have be bemused though, the only thing I can think is they're suicide risks, but that's a long bow to draw). |
Please tell me you're just playing devil's advocate and not being serious.
Otherwise, what makes you so certain that Hitler was wrong? 
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| David wrote: | | Wokko wrote: | Russia is looking at the degeneration of society in the west and has decided they don't want to head down that path, or at least arrest it while they think they still can. I think they're misguided in their approach, but why is it BAD that a society wants to maintain the traditional values they hold rather than descend into hedonism and destruction of family and sexual morality? I don't have an answer on how they can obtain that outcome and I'd think they're more likely to go too far than not, but their motives appear sound. We think we're so enlightened and superior in Western countries and want to push our own (lack of) morality and values on others. Maybe societies with unfettered sexuality are ultimately suicidal and we're heading for the scrap heap of history, we're certainly not going to see it coming until too late, but why are we SO sure that we're right and they're wrong?
(Transexuals not driving does have be bemused though, the only thing I can think is they're suicide risks, but that's a long bow to draw). |
Please tell me you're just playing devil's advocate and not being serious.
Otherwise, what makes you so certain that Hitler was wrong? |
A little from column A, a little from column B. I don't see Western values (and lack thereof) as some kind of catch all utopia, but I disagree with violence and terror being committed against homosexuals and 'others' in Russia. I don't know that their endgame of trying to maintain traditional values is wrong though. I think that westerners are incredibly arrogant in thinking our societies are the best, most righteous and good thing that has ever been.
As for Hitler, I'm certain him and National Socialism aren't as wrong as we've been led to believe but they were very wrong on so much that the rest pales in comparison. Too easy to say "Take away the Jewish thing and National socialism is great" when the whole issue with Jews was central to the philosophy.
I've been sent a link to a SIX HOUR! documentary on Adolf Hitler that I have heard some great reviews of from people who watched it. I haven't watched it myself, so can't attest to the accuracy or quality but FWIW here's a link if you're interested.
http://thegreateststorynevertold.tv/
History is NEVER black and white, but nobody wants nuance, they want comic book villains or heroes and the whole Putin thing at the moment just solidifies that in my mind. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ Oh, Gawd, Wokko. "As for Hitler, I'm certain him and National Socialism aren't as wrong as we've been led to believe..." Really ? I mean, really ? From a libertarian, no less ?
Anyway, back on topic, as we were rightly chastised by Tess, Russia is actually has a family resemblance to Nazism, as a proud people is humiliated by history, and its middle class (always the anchor of stability) is crushed by terrible economics. The result is a seething mass of resentment and a desire to find someone to blame for the slight.
All outsiders are at risk in this situaiton, and gay people are but one group that is being selected for blame and victimisation. History should tell us that Russia right now is a very dangerous beast indeed ; as germany showed us in 1933, developed countries can unwind into barbarism rather quickly.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| I've posted the ideals of pre war National Socialism before and they have striking similarities to modern liberal values. I highly doubt that millions of Germans suddenly decided "Let's be murderous arseholes". We're fed tales of a cartoon villain, entirely evil and without any redeeming features (both Hitler and National Socialism), I highly doubt this is the truth. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I agree that nothing is black and white, but there was a lot more wrong with the Nazis than just the Holocaust and WW2. Totalitarianism, book-burning, killing dissidents, the whole racial superiority thing... history has hardly treated them that unfairly.
But back to the topic: while I don't think much of "traditional values" anyway, nothing about Russia's backward trend is about traditional morality. They're simply playing the anti-gay card the same way Howard and Abbott have played the anti-refugee card. In this case, it's a total ploy to distract from Putin and Medvedev's increasing stranglehold on power and their steadfast intolerance towards any form of political opposition. The same goes for their embrace of nationalism and the corrupt Russian Orthodox Church, and perhaps to an extent the expansion into Eastern Ukraine.
It could well be that some Russian conservatives genuinely see the West as a hedonistic sexual free-for-all, but think about who and what is actually being targeted over there: the ability for people to be openly gay; the right of gay people to adopt; the right of transsexuals to drive (FFS). This is no pushback against sex in public places or porn on billboards, but the right of ordinary, decent queer people to live a normal life free of harassment. That this is seen as a threat to the Russian way of life shows how £$%$ed up things are over there.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| David wrote: | | But back to the topic: while I don't think much of "traditional values" anyway, nothing about Russia's backward trend is about traditional morality. They're simply playing the anti-gay card the same way Howard and Abbott have played the anti-refugee card. In this case, it's a total ploy to distract from Putin and Medvedev's increasing stranglehold on power and their steadfast intolerance towards any form of political opposition. The same goes for their embrace of nationalism and the corrupt Russian Orthodox Church, and perhaps to an extent the expansion into Eastern Ukraine. |
Correct. Basic common sense played out everyday, everywhere.*
*Except in the fundamentalist Muslim world, where those with power would never use flimsy alibis like religion or outdated custom to justify violent power taking and self aggrandisement—a fact obvious enough from their humble, ascetic clothing. As very serious expert Western readers of the Internet have concluded, they instead suffer from an extremely contagious infection of the religion gland, sitting as it does anterior to their genetically-defective basal civilisation ganglia  ).
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ On the contrary, I think the exact same thing happens throughout the Middle East, in governments and political organisations alike. But that's not what we were arguing about in the other thread.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| David wrote: | | ^ On the contrary, I think the exact same thing happens throughout the Middle East, in governments and political organisations alike. But that's not what we were arguing about in the other thread. |
It was a joke with teeth! 
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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While I can fully understand the Russians fighting to hold onto (or reclaim) traditional values and culture, the murder of political dissidents just isn't something that should ever be acceptable. Purely pragmatically, Putin is hugely popular and having no voices to challenge him is just a recipe for stagnation, hubris and downfall. Better for a Benevolent Dictatorship to have powerless but vocal opposition (think Roman Senate) in order to at least ensure the leader has a second viewpoint to call on.
Of course, none of us are experts on Russian internal politics and for all we know there are all kinds of plots in the works, coups being worked on etc. |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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It's an appalling crime and even though many assume naturally that Putin was behind this crime is there any chance that other people in high places were behind this crime as opposed to Putin? I'm not trying to play devil's advocate here despite the obvious signs that Nemstov would have been killed by a supporter of Putin (not necessarily on his orders) because of his criticisms of the current Russian government.
Wokko is spot on that Putin's popularity levels in Russia still remain very high. For all his flaws, Putin does have this ability to unite Russia and many proud Russians feel like that Putin has reclaimed that rich history and culture that Russia used to have in the Soviet days before the likes of Yeltsin came into power in the 1990s and Russia began to embrace a more democratic and Westernised system of government.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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The Observer had a really good editorial on this yesterday, I think. As they say, it almost doesn't matter whether Putin ordered Nemtsov's death or not; what's important is that he and his supporters have deliberately created a climate in which assassinations like these are a natural conclusion.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/mar/01/observer-view-on-boris-nemtsov
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