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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I didn't say social security was capitalism, I said it's capitalism with a social conscience.
Don't pick bits and twist them out of context. 
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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But equally, you could refer to the Australian business sphere as 'socialism with a decentralised marketplace'. I guess it just depends where you choose to place the emphasis.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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It's not just about the emphasis, it's about where the balance sits. Australia is a capitalist society with a social conscience and safety net.
If you weigh up the elements that make a socialist vs capitalist society, the balance falls overwhelmingly on the capitalist side.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Perhaps, but what are your reference points for that judgement? It's arguable that we've seen examples of something close to pure socialism, but I think it'd be difficult to imagine a pure capitalist state. The US wouldn't even come close.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just sceptical.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I'd be interested in where you think we've seen pure socialism and how it worked.
Pure capitalism is darwinism in action and I'm pretty sure you're right it's never been in place. It's a moot point whether you call the safety nets for the poor socialism, social conscience or just plain human rights but I think they're necessary. FWIW the USA would consider a lot of what we do in the human rights area socialist, they are a lot closer to pure capitalism than we are, they're potentially the most right wing country in the world atm.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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It gets worse, I'm afraid:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/06/12/russian-parliament-approves-anti-homosexuality-law-that-would-impose-fines-for-gay-pride-rallies-in-436-0-vote/
| Quote: | MOSCOW — A bill that stigmatizes gay people and bans giving children any information about homosexuality won overwhelming approval Tuesday in Russia’s lower house of parliament.
Hours before the State Duma passed the Kremlin-backed law in a 436-0 vote with one abstention, more than two dozen protesters were attacked by hundreds of anti-gay activists and then detained by police.
The bill banning the “propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations” still needs to be passed by the appointed upper house and signed into law by President Vladimir Putin, but neither step is in doubt.
The measure is part of an effort to promote traditional Russian values instead of Western liberalism, which the Kremlin and the Russian Orthodox Church see as corrupting Russian youth and contributing to the protests against Putin’s rule.
The only parliament member to abstain Tuesday was Ilya Ponomaryov, who has supported anti-Putin protesters despite belonging to a pro-Kremlin party.
A widespread hostility to homosexuality is shared by much of Russia’s political and religious elite. Lawmakers have accused gays of decreasing Russia’s already low birth rates and said they should be barred from government jobs, undergo forced medical treatment or be exiled.
The State Duma passed another bill on Tuesday that makes offending religious feelings a crime punishable by up to three years in prison. |
| Quote: | Before the anti-gay vote on Tuesday, rights activists attempted to hold a “kissing rally” outside the State Duma, located across the street from Red Square in central Moscow, but they were attacked by hundreds of Orthodox Christian activists and members of pro-Kremlin youth groups. The mostly burly young men with closely cropped hair pelted the activists with eggs, shouting obscenities and homophobic slurs at them.
Riot police moved in, detaining more than two dozen protesters, almost all of them gay rights activists. Some who were not detained were beaten by masked men on another central street.
The legislation will impose hefty fines for providing information about the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community to minors or holding gay pride rallies. Those breaking the law will be fined up to 5,000 rubles ($156) for an individual and up to 1 million rubles ($31,000) for a company, including media organizations.
Foreign citizens arrested under the new law can be deported or jailed for up to 15 days and then deported. European gay rights activists have joined Russians in trying to hold gay pride rallies in Moscow in recent years.
Russia decriminalized homosexuality in 1993, but anti-gay sentiment remains high. Russia also is considering banning citizens of countries that allow same-sex marriage from adopting Russian children.
Earlier Tuesday, dozens of anti-gay activists picketed the Duma. One of them held a poster that read: “Lawmakers, protect the people from perverts!” while others held Orthodox icons and chanted prayers. |
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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As 1061 has mentioned in a couple of threads, things are getting even worse over there. This latest law is just so crazy that it's almost impossible to see it as anything other than a bad joke. Unfortunately, for trans Russians, there's nothing funny about it:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/09/transgender-people-russia-banned-driving-legal-amendment-dmitry-medvedev
| Quote: | Transgender people have been banned from driving in Russia, according to a new legal amendment published this week.
The regulations, which affect people deemed to have “sexual disorders”, also affect fetishists, voyeurs, exhibitionists and transvestites, and were immediately condemned by human rights activists as discriminatory.
The amendment to the law listing medical impediments to driving was signed by prime minister Dmitry Medvedev at the end of last year, but only published this week.
Russia has some of the worst figures for road accident fatalities in the world, and the new regulations are part of a government programme aimed at reducing the number of people who die on the country’s roads. Currently, official figures say 30,000 people die and 250,000 are injured on the roads every year.
The amendments give a long list of physical and mental disabilities which are legal impediments to driving, including conditions such as serious visual impairment or paralysis.
But the most controversial section is the list of sexual preferences and conditions given, including paedophilia, sado-masochism and exhibitionism, as well as “fetishism”, which is described as people who gain sexual arousal from inanimate objects. Transsexuals and transvestites are also on the list, which is drawn from the World Health Organisation’s list of “gender identity disorders” and “disorders of sexual preference.” |
Lola brought this to my attention. In her Facebook post, she referred to Russia as "this alien country I used to think of as my home". For the many gay, lesbian and trans Russians who haven't had the good fortune to leave, there's certainly not much there to call home any more.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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| stui magpie wrote: | It's not just about the emphasis, it's about where the balance sits. Australia is a capitalist society with a social conscience and safety net.
If you weigh up the elements that make a socialist vs capitalist society, the balance falls overwhelmingly on the capitalist side. |
Nonsense. Well, nonsense until quite recently, say the last couple of decades.
Australia has traditionally been a mixed economy - i.e., an economy which has both capitalist and socialist enterprises. In general, mixed economies provide the best possible social and economic outcomes: the publicly owned corporations set a benchmark to keep the private companies honest and halfway decent, the private companies provide competition to keep the public organisations relevant and efficient.
Australia was outstandingly successful for the best part of half a century, despite not having particularly good underlying conditions (terms of trade; government industry policies and so on); got a boost from the long-overdue introduction of much-needed micro-economic reforms (mostly thanks to Hawke and Keating), and has performed in the poor-to-average class ever since despite a couple of decades worth of very favourable external circumstances. We dismantled our winning mixed economy model in an orgy of privatisation and short-term greed, and only the great good fortune of the mining boom kept us growing and more-or-less healthy. Now, with the boom times over, we are left with no assets in public hands, huge private debt, massive infrastructure expenses looming, huge cost burdens imposed by the mostly foreign oligopolies which now own so many vital economic assets and make massive profits from them (electricity supply, telecommunications, airports, roads, and banks, just to name the most obvious examples) and an economy fast headed for the skids.
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Australia is my home. |
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What'sinaname
Joined: 29 May 2010
Location: Living rent free
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What's worse, Russia or professional sports like the AFL and NFL.
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Fighting against the objectification of woman. |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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Note the role of the Orthodox Christian Church in this. If they were a Muslim group, that would be the story in and of itself.
Authority, hierarchy and violent fanaticism come in many, many forms.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| pietillidie wrote: | Note the role of the Orthodox Christian Church in this. If they were a Muslim group, that would be the story in and of itself.
Authority, hierarchy and violent fanaticism come in many, many forms. |
It is well noted. Russia is the perfect example of the truism that religion is not itself at the root of all violence and suffering, but that there are few more effective tools for maintaining power over others.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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Russia is looking at the degeneration of society in the west and has decided they don't want to head down that path, or at least arrest it while they think they still can. I think they're misguided in their approach, but why is it BAD that a society wants to maintain the traditional values they hold rather than descend into hedonism and destruction of family and sexual morality? I don't have an answer on how they can obtain that outcome and I'd think they're more likely to go too far than not, but their motives appear sound. We think we're so enlightened and superior in Western countries and want to push our own (lack of) morality and values on others. Maybe societies with unfettered sexuality are ultimately suicidal and we're heading for the scrap heap of history, we're certainly not going to see it coming until too late, but why are we SO sure that we're right and they're wrong?
(Transexuals not driving does have be bemused though, the only thing I can think is they're suicide risks, but that's a long bow to draw). |
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