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3.14159 
Joined: 12 Sep 2009
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What, no more chasing tail, patting pussy or spanking the monkey!
What the hell is my trouser snake going to do in the afternoons? |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Haha, even I think furries are weird (in a slightly cute way—I emphasise "slightly").
TP, I completely agree with you. Tying animals up for sex is obviously wrong and should be prosecuted as a form of animal cruelty. I never disagreed with you on that point.
1061, you've just insulted me for no good reason. I have a pretty thick skin, so, whatever, but I'd advise that you man up and explain exactly why you think I have a "sick mind". My argument is simply that something that doesn't cause any harm or distress shouldn't be considered wrong. That's a utilitarian position, which just happens to be one of the most important strains of ethical philosophical thought over the last 200 years. Can you (or anyone else) propose a higher moral standard? If you can't argue my point or don't have the intellectual courage for it that's fine, but try to treat people a little more respectfully.
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace
Last edited by David on Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:38 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | cows, sheep, pigs, chickens are bred and raised specifically to provide food and clothing (wool and leather). In that way they're no different to a paddock full of wheat. They're grown for a purpose.
Yes, they should be treated well while they're alive and not cruelly, but if we didn't eat them they wouldn't exist. They would have died out. |
I don't think that argument works very well, because you could say the same about kids who are bred for slavery or people who are born and raised for cannibal rituals. |
And this exists where? |
I'm sure you could find instances throughout history—say, in cultures that practised human sacrifice, or 'caste' laws in India or elsewhere, or children born to slaves in the United States before the Civil War—but surely the point is not to find evidence of this as an actual phenomenon but to recognise it as an illustration of a point: the mere fact of being bred for some nefarious purpose doesn't somehow make your life less valuable. |
Actually, No.
The point would be to recognise that the situations you tried to use as an example doesn't exist, and doesn't exist for a reason. The reason is you're talking about people, not animals and we've established that people have rights.
So - we don't captive breed humans to be used for food or work, but we do animals.
Does that make it right? Yep, I think it does. Cows and sheep are not people.
| Tannin wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | but if we didn't eat them they wouldn't exist. They would have died out. |
^ This is a statement betraying truly monumental ignorance about the biological world. |
Really? Do you think they would thrive?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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OK, so let's put hypotheticals to the side for one moment and deal with something that actually happened. Consider slavery in the 1700s. Children born to African slaves were considered inferior and not born for a life of freedom. Prevailing thought at the time was that they were inferior. Do you think they were? And if they were 'bred' for their potential use as slaves of the future—I have no doubt that there were cases of this sort of thing occurring—does that mean that it was right that they were limited to fulfilling that purpose? And if they were to say to you at the time "we wish to be free", would you turn around to them and say "tough luck—if it hadn't been for slavery, you wouldn't have even been born" (which is true)? Or would you acknowledge that their worth as individuals was more than just their "purpose" or reason for existence?
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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What was done to them was considered right at the time, but was proven wrong because despite other differences, they were still people.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ I suspect that we'll be saying something similar about our treatment of animals in years to come. Either way, surely you'd agree that the welfare of animals is slightly more important than that of wheat!
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| I never noticed that similarity. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | ^ I suspect that we'll be saying something similar about our treatment of animals in years to come. Either way, surely you'd agree that the welfare of animals is slightly more important than that of wheat! |
Where your argument falls down is that the black slaves were considered inferior, but reasonably quickly showed that given education they were just as intelligent as anyone else.
When you can teach a pig to read, write and speak at 3rd grade level I'll happily swear off bacon.
And yes, the welfare of animals is significantly more important than that of grains.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I'm certainly not arguing with you that animals are inferior to us in most capacities. But I'm not sure that inferiority should necessarily translate to "worthy of being kept in cages and being killed indiscriminately". From an ethical point of view, does it matter how smart they are? That's not a rhetorical question, I genuinely don't know the answer. I'm probably not the right person to argue this. Where's Morrigu? 
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Interesting source. |
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1061
Joined: 06 Sep 2013
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| David wrote: | | 1061, you've just insulted me for no good reason. |
David it's up to you if you choose to feel insulted, I refuse to discuss this any further with you and you have my reason!
I cannot and do not want too control how you feel or what you think. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Why can't you do and do not want control how you feel or what you think? |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | ^ That's a great analogy, Wokko, and one I've considered before. We make so many half-hearted justifications for eating meat that simply don't logically hold when applied to other situations.
By the way, 12 days into the month and I still haven't eaten anything's flesh. It hasn't been easy. 
(Lest I'm coming over at all preachy in this thread, I really don't intend to. Despite my current experiment, I still haven't made up my mind on the issue of eating meat—personally and generally—and I don't judge anyone who wants to. In any case, I was still eating copious quantities of chicken two weeks ago, so I'm no-one to judge. The only thing that pisses me off is intellectual timidity.) |
Does that include Fish?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Wokko
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | ^ I suspect that we'll be saying something similar about our treatment of animals in years to come. Either way, surely you'd agree that the welfare of animals is slightly more important than that of wheat! |
Where your argument falls down is that the black slaves were considered inferior, but reasonably quickly showed that given education they were just as intelligent as anyone else.
When you can teach a pig to read, write and speak at 3rd grade level I'll happily swear off bacon.
And yes, the welfare of animals is significantly more important than that of grains. |
So you think it's ok to eat the retarded? Or babies? Or the demented elderly? Why does intelligence or cognitive ability predetermine the right to life?
FWIW I don't think egalitarianism is an inherently worthy philosophy but in the absence of a higher ideal it's probably the right way to look at most simple, non metasocial issues. |
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