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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | ^ If by a shake-up you mean, for instance, millions of us get indiscriminately slaughtered in another world war, I think I might pass on that.  |
Yes, that kind of shake up is in the "never again" category.
I still find it mind-blowing, those vast ranks of bone-white stone in Flanders and the Somme and Verdun, and the massive monuments at Menin and Thiepval, cataloguing the names of men, so young, who were minced into the mud and never even found. They are the cathedrals of hell. I do not know that anything on this earth fills me with the same terrible awe. Never again.
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | ^ If by a shake-up you mean, for instance, millions of us get indiscriminately slaughtered in another world war, I think I might pass on that. |
^
Prepared to be conscripted?  |
Prepared to go to jail instead if it's a cause I don't support... |
I think you'd live longer in the Army........ |
That's a charming observation, Stui.
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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
But an accurate one IMHO. No insult intended, I don't think you'd last long in general population in prison whereas in the army you go through basic training before being posted anywhere and have a number of options other than combat
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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While our jail conditions are indeed violent and unacceptable, we do seem to have a relatively small number of prison deaths in this country (about 1 for every 1000 prisoners), so I think that's pretty unlikely. Whether I'd get through it without being physically or sexually assaulted is another matter... but then, hey, seems like one has to expect that in the army too.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Yeah, but you have a biased (poor?) opinion of Police and the armed forces and those who serve in them and a romanticised view of prisoners.
Someone would make you their bitch inside the first week in GD, physical and sexual assault would be a given.
I'd volunteer for 2 years in the armed forces over 12 months in GD in Gaol anytime.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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While I wouldn't set myself up as an expert on prison conditions in Australia, have you actually set foot in one in the last thirty years? I'm just wondering what you're basing this on.
The prospect of being killed on the battlefield aside, I suspect the army is better than it was, and undoubtedly a better place to be than jail – although, perhaps, comparable to prison in many ways. I'm sure you've read the same reports I have about the rampant violence and sexual abuse in the ADF. At the end of the day, both places seem to have a similar philosophy about the need to crush weakness. Both aim to break people and both succeed in doing so admirably. One is a place of discipline and punishment as a means of retribution against people who have broken social order, the other is a place of physical punishment and discipline in order to make people better killers.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
I did a couple of 4 hour terms in lock up for D&D back in the day and I've spoken with a few people who've done time, I've also spent time with army grunts over a beer or 30.
Do you have any first or second hand experience of either or do you just base your opinions on what you read in your media of choice?
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | While I wouldn't set myself up as an expert on prison conditions in Australia, have you actually set foot in one in the last thirty years? I'm just wondering what you're basing this on.
The prospect of being killed on the battlefield aside, I suspect the army is better than it was, and undoubtedly a better place to be than jail – although, perhaps, comparable to prison in many ways. I'm sure you've read the same reports I have about the rampant violence and sexual abuse in the ADF. At the end of the day, both places seem to have a similar philosophy about the need to crush weakness. Both aim to break people and both succeed in doing so admirably. One is a place of discipline and punishment as a means of retribution against people who have broken social order, the other is a place of physical punishment and discipline in order to make people better killers. |
I've met and worked with many people who have been in the armies of the US and the UK. The majority of them have greater empathy and engagement skills than the average manager, as they have worked with people from all classes of life in conditions where those who understand teamwork are likely to live, and those who do not, are likely to get hurt. They also have a very strong conception of duty and responsibility. I have less experience of working with jailbirds, but I know which class of men I'd rather spend time with.
You say that you are not an expert on prison conditions, but strangely you seem an expert on the atmosphere and culture of the military. In truth, there are pockets of abuse in the military - as there are in most large organisations. However, most of the training received by military personnel is not designed to "make them better killers" - any idiot can kill - but rather, designed to give them the best chance of surviving combat, and helping their mates to do so as well. This mostly produces men and women of great quality.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I'm not at all setting myself up as an expert in the military – like most people who haven't served there, I only know what I see reported in the media or what I hear anecdotally. But I get the impression that it's not all backslapping and fireside chats.
Here's a quick question. Do you reckon exchanges of the sort recorded in this video are extraordinary or fairly commonplace in the US armed forces? And do you think we have a fundamentally different military culture here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bYiLol6XbE
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | I'm not at all setting myself up as an expert in the military – like most people who haven't served there, I only know what I see reported in the media or what I hear anecdotally. But I get the impression that it's not all backslapping and fireside chats.
Here's a quick question. Do you reckon exchanges of the sort recorded in this video is extraordinary or fairly commonplace in the US armed forces? And do you think we have a fundamentally different military culture here?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bYiLol6XbE |
No idea - it's probably a fairly heavy example of what drill sergeants have been doing for about a hundred years now in basic training, to ensure that people who are used to civilian life are trained to survive in an environment where the other side are trying to do something much worse to you than yelling. A lot of basic training is designed to mimic some of the stresses of combat, and this is part of it. I know - from the reports of friends who have been in the military - that this type of stuff tends to stop after basic training.
Whatever they do, they usually turn out people who are respectful, disciplined and pleasant to work with, though no doubt there will be exceptions.
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Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:23 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | I'm not at all setting myself up as an expert in the military – like most people who haven't served there, I only know what I see reported in the media or what I hear anecdotally. But I get the impression that it's not all backslapping and fireside chats.
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Translation, you have NFI, you just believe what you read that reinforces your existing biases and beliefs.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I actually asked you a direct question about the prison system earlier that you ignored, so I could have said the same. It's not actually a bad thing to admit to the limitations of one's knowledge on a topic – limitations which, I think it's fair to say, you and I share equally here (unless you've done a stint at Duntroon that I'm unaware of).
By the way, if you're tired of conjecture, here are some facts. I apologise for the length of the document, but it seems pretty comprehensive – and Mugwump, it suggests that psychological and physical abuse doesn't, in fact, cease after basic training:
https://www.defenceabusetaskforce.gov.au/reports/Documents/ReportonabuseinDefence.PDF
| Quote: | (iii) Physical abuse
More than half of all complaints of abuse at RAAF Base Wagga involved physical abuse (28 complainants). The vast majority of complainants who reported physical abuse were male (21 complainants), and most complainants reported having been physically abused on more than three occasions (18 complainants).
A large proportion of complainants experienced physical abuse carried out by senior apprentices against junior apprentices in tandem with harassment and bullying, as part of hazing or initiation practices. Physical abuse in this context was often referred to as rumbling, which encompassed a variety of practices, typically including bed tipping (10 complainants) (described in section 18.4(c)(iv) above), and physical assault.
In addition, complainants reported several other types of physical abuse at RAAF Base Wagga. This included firehosing or sprog washing (nine complainants) (described in section 18.4(c)(vii) above), crucifixion or Jesus showers (described in section 18.4(c)(iii) above), and grot baths or chemical baths (described in section 18.4(c)(vi) above). Very few complainants reported physical abuse carried out by members of staff at RAAF Base Wagga and all of these complainants reported isolated incidents of abuse. However, several complainants told the Taskforce that members of staff witnessed, and implicitly condoned, the serious and widespread acts of physical abuse carried out amongst apprentices and trainees.
(iv) Harassment and bullying
A high proportion of complaints of abuse at RAAF Base Wagga involved some form of harassment and bullying (35 complainants). Almost all of the incidents falling within this category of abuse were part of sustained and ongoing campaigns of harassment and bullying (33 complainants). Of these, two thirds of complainants were men (22 complainants), and one third were women (11 complainants).
The forms of harassment and bullying experienced by junior apprentices varied greatly. Complainants reported being made to complete errands and menial tasks for senior apprentices. They also reported that senior apprentices regularly damaged and disturbed their property. In addition to these more ‘traditional’ forms of harassment and bullying, many complaints described scenarios where members of newer intakes were ordered to engage in absurd and degrading practices by senior peers, seemingly designed to maximise humiliation. For example, one complainant described his intake being made to participate in a piss parade (described in section 18.4 (c)(i) above). Often, the harassment and bullying had sexual undertones. For example, some complainants were stripped naked. Some complainants noted that the harassment and bullying was targeted at those who were smaller, or weaker than their peers. However, the majority of the abuse appears to have been carried out indiscriminately in groups for the purpose of reinforcing informal hierarchies. |
This will not shock anyone familiar with the Stanford Prison Experiment. Give people significant power over others in confined, authoritarian environments, and abuse inevitably seems to follow.
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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^ No doubt there are pockets of abuse in the army : though ca 2000 alleged cases in 50 years is not an epidemic. Put 100,000 or so people from all walks of life in a pretty masculine (and yes, somewhat authoritarian) environment, and this risk of criminal behaviour will certainly exist. Still, compared to the average boy's school across the period, it is probably relatively limited in scale.
Anyway, none of that substantiates your initial sweeping comment that the army is "designed to break people". I work with plenty of people who have served in the military. On the whole, they are rather less broken than many of the inner-city radicals I used to know. I think you might find that your ideology is substituting for evidence and experience.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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David, you just really don't like authority do you!
I've known a fair few people in the military in different divisions of it, including both of my parents, both were British RAF and served in Germany in the 50s. and your ideal of it is full of crap. Quite insulting actually. (My grandparents allowed my father to become a monster not the RAF). I was even engaged to an Aussie RAAF member.
As for jails, well I can only think of two people I know that have been to jail. One is a real tough bastard, and he refuses to speak of it.
And I'll tell you what, I know which 'broken' men I'd want to stand with if the shit ever gets real. Cheers
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I don't like authoritarian structures of this nature, no – but it's not like I'm just making stuff up here. Think of what you have to do to a human being to make them accept killing someone else. Think of what you need to do to make that training effective. Perhaps things are a bit more regulated and PC in the army nowadays, but the stuff you hear about from a couple of decades back is absolutely hair-raising. Plus, the abuse described in that document mostly took place in the 1990s and 2000s, so we're not talking about ancient history here.
| Mugwump wrote: | | ^ No doubt there are pockets of abuse in the army : though ca 2000 alleged cases in 50 years is not an epidemic. Put 100,000 or so people from all walks of life in a pretty masculine (and yes, somewhat authoritarian) environment, and this risk of criminal behaviour will certainly exist. Still, compared to the average boy's school across the period, it is probably relatively limited in scale. |
Good lord! If you're comparing armies to the factories of bullying, homophobia and sexual/physical abuse that are boys' schools, I rest my case. Morrissey said it best on that particular topic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQTc4GolJt4
The trouble is that such violence has been accepted for so long that it was just seen as a normal and healthy rite of passage, just as the army was seen as a way to make a boy into a man and prisons were seen as – well, who cared what happened to the people who ended up there so long as they were off the streets. Things are changing for the better in all three categories, no doubt at all; but the only way for that progress to keep occurring is for people to recognise violence, abuse and bullying in all their forms as unacceptable – and clearly, given the advocacy we see here at times for a return to corporal punishment in schools, or for criminals to get harsher treatment, or for people to stop being such special snowflakes, that cultural struggle is far from over.
One thing I'm sure of is that complacency will only allow those same old ugly dynamics to thrive again.
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