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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| swoop42 wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Where the **** is summer, I'm bloody freezing |
Don't worry.
Stui is on his way with his sunshine filled bum. |
Sorry, I've been spending so much time sitting on it lately, my leather chair has skin cancer.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Pies4shaw wrote: | To the extent that such folk want to vote against an improved social security system, a broader set of health-insurance protections and a strengthening of the rights of the dispossessed generally, they are going to find themselves progressively even more - wait for it - dispossessed.
To the extent that, individually, they are disadvantaged and dispossessed, they are certainly deserving of a better deal. However, to the extent that their perception is limited to bringing others back to their level, rather than demanding an improvement of their own collective lot, they are the enemy and their stupidity is to be pitied, derided, ridiculed and - yes - an object of humour.
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No argument, but all of the above are matters of choice, not of ascribed identity. You just shifted the goalposts.
I quite agree that much of the American right is peddling hatred. So are people who put up public signs urging discrimination against other people on the basis of their skin colour and gender.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| Mountains Magpie wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | Falling behind whom? Behind black people living in Detroit? I think not.
They are falling behind rich east-coast billionaires - but that's partly because they don't seem to appreciate that there is some slight difference of interest between them and the other group.
This is, of course, what we used to be allowed to call "false consciousness".
To the extent that such folk want to vote against an improved social security system, a broader set of health-insurance protections and a strengthening of the rights of the dispossessed generally, they are going to find themselves progressively even more - wait for it - dispossessed.
To the extent that, individually, they are disadvantaged and dispossessed, they are certainly deserving of a better deal. However, to the extent that their perception is limited to bringing others back to their level, rather than demanding an improvement of their own collective lot, they are the enemy and their stupidity is to be pitied, derided, ridiculed and - yes - an object of humour.
Well, at least until their prejudices enable the planet to be blown up, at which point I will, I suppose (unless I am completely wrong about religion), cease laughing, too. |
And there's the rub. What on earth is going on in the West? So much hate and divisiveness. It MUST be being perpetrated by SOMEONE? If so, what is the end agenda to this? Classic divide and conquer? FIIK.
MM |
It’s a great question, MM.
Hate and division come from loss. Blue-collar workers in the West have seen relatively well-paid jobs in manufacturing move offshore to the developing world, to be replaced by more insecure employment. That’s the first loss.
Secondly, the consolations of shared values and a settled national culture – which once sustained communities in incredible hardship - have been eroded by multiculturalism and mass immigration, and the fragmentation of community, identity and affinity these bring.
Thirdly, after a long period of peace and relative prosperity, people have lost the sense of ordinary gratitude for gifts that prior generations knew how to value, but we do not. Peace, accessible health care, near-zero infant mortality, ubiquitous access to information, a welfare net, and free education to age 18 - my grandparents, who lived in real poverty in depression-era Collingwood like most of their class, would look at today’s world with awe and wonder. It is in the nature of our political process, however, to point out how bad things are, and it is human nature to feel envy over our deficits relative to others, rather than to rejoice in our absolute good fortune. This is what Shakespeare called “the cankers of a calm world and a long peace”. Those cankers are growing fast.
Last year I went to see my great-grandfather’s grave in Northern France, on the Somme. If he could see the world of today, I think he would consider it marvellous. However, if he could see the brattishness, fragmentation, and yes, “entitlement” of so many in our society, I fancy he would wonder whether any of it was worth what he paid for it.
_________________
Two more flags before I die!
Last edited by Mugwump on Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:53 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Something we cannot know. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | To the extent that such folk want to vote against an improved social security system, a broader set of health-insurance protections and a strengthening of the rights of the dispossessed generally, they are going to find themselves progressively even more - wait for it - dispossessed.
To the extent that, individually, they are disadvantaged and dispossessed, they are certainly deserving of a better deal. However, to the extent that their perception is limited to bringing others back to their level, rather than demanding an improvement of their own collective lot, they are the enemy and their stupidity is to be pitied, derided, ridiculed and - yes - an object of humour.
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No argument, but all of the above are matters of choice, not of ascribed identity. You just shifted the goalposts.
I quite agree that much of the American right is peddling hatred. So are people who put up public signs urging discrimination against other people on the basis of their skin colour and gender. |
Question for those who study these things, how much has the Cold War indoctrinated American thinking?
Universal health care and a social security safety net are things most of us consider fundamental, yet in the USA the populace resist. Talk to the average person (strippers, cab drivers, bartenders) they support their current system in the main.
During the cold war following WWII, US citizens were indoctrinated with the fear of communism.
The hypothesis is, this has had a carry over effect through the generations.
Thoughts?
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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| stui magpie wrote: | | swoop42 wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Where the **** is summer, I'm bloody freezing |
Don't worry.
Stui is on his way with his sunshine filled bum. |
Sorry, I've been spending so much time sitting on it lately, my leather chair has skin cancer. |
Hopefully your gonads weren't sunburnt.
_________________
He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: |
Question for those who study these things, how much has the Cold War indoctrinated American thinking?
Universal health care and a social security safety net are things most of us consider fundamental, yet in the USA the populace resist. Talk to the average person (strippers, cab drivers, bartenders) they support their current system in the main.
During the cold war following WWII, US citizens were indoctrinated with the fear of communism.
The hypothesis is, this has had a carry over effect through the generations.
Thoughts? |
^ Cold War effect ? A bit, perhaps, but not much, I should think.
Americans are sceptical of government because (i) the nation was effectively founded from a protest against monarchy and taxation ; (ii) it therefore had anti-tyrannical provisions written into the fibre of its constitution ; (iii) this was reinforced in practice because it is a union of semi-autonomous states which were already relatively powerful when federation happened ; and (iv) it then expanded west through private action, rather than government coordination.
While the reach of government has expanded a lot, particularly since the 1960s, that subsoil is still there and it goes deep. I’d say it explains both the hostility to communism and resistance to programmatic government intervention. Mind you, strippers and cab drivers are often "entrepreneurs", so you might not have a representative sample of the ordinary folks, there !
One other caveat : I have worked with Americans from many parts of the country for many years, and spent many months in the country over the years. I am always struck by how hard it is to generalise about them, and how downright weird it (and they) can be. It is a big, decentralised, very individualistic country, and thus much less internally consistent than Australia or European countries.
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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Mountains Magpie
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Somewhere between now and then
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| Mugwump wrote: | | Mountains Magpie wrote: | | Pies4shaw wrote: | Falling behind whom? Behind black people living in Detroit? I think not.
They are falling behind rich east-coast billionaires - but that's partly because they don't seem to appreciate that there is some slight difference of interest between them and the other group.
This is, of course, what we used to be allowed to call "false consciousness".
To the extent that such folk want to vote against an improved social security system, a broader set of health-insurance protections and a strengthening of the rights of the dispossessed generally, they are going to find themselves progressively even more - wait for it - dispossessed.
To the extent that, individually, they are disadvantaged and dispossessed, they are certainly deserving of a better deal. However, to the extent that their perception is limited to bringing others back to their level, rather than demanding an improvement of their own collective lot, they are the enemy and their stupidity is to be pitied, derided, ridiculed and - yes - an object of humour.
Well, at least until their prejudices enable the planet to be blown up, at which point I will, I suppose (unless I am completely wrong about religion), cease laughing, too. |
And there's the rub. What on earth is going on in the West? So much hate and divisiveness. It MUST be being perpetrated by SOMEONE? If so, what is the end agenda to this? Classic divide and conquer? FIIK.
MM |
It’s a great question, MM.
Hate and division come from loss. Blue-collar workers in the West have seen relatively well-paid jobs in manufacturing move offshore to the developing world, to be replaced by more insecure employment. That’s the first loss.
Secondly, the consolations of shared values and a settled national culture – which once sustained communities in incredible hardship - have been eroded by multiculturalism and mass immigration, and the fragmentation of community, identity and affinity these bring.
Thirdly, after a long period of peace and relative prosperity, people have lost the sense of ordinary gratitude for gifts that prior generations knew how to value, but we do not. Peace, accessible health care, near-zero infant mortality, ubiquitous access to information, a welfare net, and free education to age 18 - my grandparents, who lived in real poverty in depression-era Collingwood like most of their class, would look at today’s world with awe and wonder. It is in the nature of our political process, however, to point out how bad things are, and it is human nature to feel envy over our deficits relative to others, rather than to rejoice in our absolute good fortune. This is what Shakespeare called “the cankers of a calm world and a long peace”. Those cankers are growing fast.
Last year I went to see my great-grandfather’s grave in Northern France, on the Somme. If he could see the world of today, I think he would consider it marvellous. However, if he could see the brattishness, fragmentation, and yes, “entitlement” of so many in our society, I fancy he would wonder whether any of it was worth what he paid for it. |
Maybe a shake up might be a good thing for all of us. Is it too dystopian to suggest that we've had it too good for too long?
MM
_________________
Spiral progress, unstoppable,
exhausted sources replaced by perversion |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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^ If by a shake-up you mean, for instance, millions of us get indiscriminately slaughtered in another world war, I think I might pass on that. 
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | ^ If by a shake-up you mean, for instance, millions of us get indiscriminately slaughtered in another world war, I think I might pass on that. |
^
Prepared to be conscripted? 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Post subject: | |
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| Mugwump wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: |
Question for those who study these things, how much has the Cold War indoctrinated American thinking?
Universal health care and a social security safety net are things most of us consider fundamental, yet in the USA the populace resist. Talk to the average person (strippers, cab drivers, bartenders) they support their current system in the main.
During the cold war following WWII, US citizens were indoctrinated with the fear of communism.
The hypothesis is, this has had a carry over effect through the generations.
Thoughts? |
^ Cold War effect ? A bit, perhaps, but not much, I should think.
Americans are sceptical of government because (i) the nation was effectively founded from a protest against monarchy and taxation ; (ii) it therefore had anti-tyrannical provisions written into the fibre of its constitution ; (iii) this was reinforced in practice because it is a union of semi-autonomous states which were already relatively powerful when federation happened ; and (iv) it then expanded west through private action, rather than government coordination.
While the reach of government has expanded a lot, particularly since the 1960s, that subsoil is still there and it goes deep. I’d say it explains both the hostility to communism and resistance to programmatic government intervention.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
It is a very different culture to Australia, although there are similarities
| Quote: |
Mind you, strippers and cab drivers are often "entrepreneurs", so you might not have a representative sample of the ordinary folks, there !
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You forgot bartenders.
| Quote: | | One other caveat : I have worked with Americans from many parts of the country for many years, and spent many months in the country over the years. I am always struck by how hard it is to generalise about them, and how downright weird it (and they) can be. It is a big, decentralised, very individualistic country, and thus much less internally consistent than Australia or European countries. |
I've never been to Europe, so I'll take your word for it, but there's definitely regional differences around Australia. Regional people, people in FNQ and WA are different to people in Melbourne, Sydney etc.
We do have a lot of movement nowdays which dilutes that but it's still there.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mountains Magpie
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Somewhere between now and then
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| David wrote: | | ^ If by a shake-up you mean, for instance, millions of us get indiscriminately slaughtered in another world war, I think I might pass on that. |
So a famine or pandemic, 1929 x 10,000 economic collapse or celestial/earth catastrophe are on the table? hehehe
Don't worry about Stui, WWIII won't last long enough for conscription 
_________________
Spiral progress, unstoppable,
exhausted sources replaced by perversion |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | ^ If by a shake-up you mean, for instance, millions of us get indiscriminately slaughtered in another world war, I think I might pass on that. |
^
Prepared to be conscripted? |
Prepared to go to jail instead if it's a cause I don't support...
_________________
All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | | stui magpie wrote: | | David wrote: | | ^ If by a shake-up you mean, for instance, millions of us get indiscriminately slaughtered in another world war, I think I might pass on that. |
^
Prepared to be conscripted? |
Prepared to go to jail instead if it's a cause I don't support... |
I think you'd live longer in the Army........
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| stui magpie wrote: | | You forgot bartenders. |
I just assumed you were too pissed by then
_________________
Two more flags before I die! |
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