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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| David wrote: | Rundle wrote a good piece on this a few months back before the trial. I won't post the whole thing, but here are some of the more pertinent paragraphs:
http://www.crikey.com.au/2015/04/23/rundle-nazi-trial-a-triumph-of-our-imagined-good-over-evil/
| Quote: | Rundle: Nazi trial a triumph of our imagined good over evil
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Duress was relevant to anyone within the Nazi empire, a death cult that would not take kindly to statements of conscientious objection. To refuse to serve as a guard in one camp might find you an inmate in another. Yet even so the principle of duress could not survive the sheer amount of death involved. To participate in one, 10, 100 killings to save yourself was one thing but then 1000? Fifty thousand? At some point, a principle of refusal overrides. It has to be a crime to continue to consent, even if refusing courts your own death. |
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Or maybe after the first one, 10, 100 killings you become somewhat desensitised. Rather than the need to do something increasing, it could reduce. The spirit slowly crushed. Think about the number of people who killed during war who had psychological issues afterward.
The old straw that breaks the camels back can work two ways. You've had enough and won't take it any more or you've taken too much and don't care anymore.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Mugwump
Joined: 28 Jul 2007
Location: Between London and Melbourne
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| David wrote: | Rundle wrote a good piece on this a few months back before the trial. I won't post the whole thing, but here are some of the more pertinent paragraphs:
http://www.crikey.com.au/2015/04/23/rundle-nazi-trial-a-triumph-of-our-imagined-good-over-evil/
| Quote: | Rundle: Nazi trial a triumph of our imagined good over evil
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Duress was relevant to anyone within the Nazi empire, a death cult that would not take kindly to statements of conscientious objection. To refuse to serve as a guard in one camp might find you an inmate in another. Yet even so the principle of duress could not survive the sheer amount of death involved. To participate in one, 10, 100 killings to save yourself was one thing but then 1000? Fifty thousand? At some point, a principle of refusal overrides. It has to be a crime to continue to consent, even if refusing courts your own death.
But such a necessary principle creates an unusual separation between value and fact. It establishes as the necessary minimum of innocence, an act that most of us would fail to do. We can reasonably assume, unless wholly unrealistic about ourselves, that we might well fail the moral test cling to life, do what were told. Every historical event and wealth of testing suggests this.
Wed all hope to be the refuser and thats what the success of hero movies turn on, our narcissistic magical feeling of specialness, that we would but the evidence suggests otherwise. Prosecution of mid- and low-levels genocide functionaries is a tragic contradiction we must refuse them the defence that arises from known human nature.
To now extend that and the burden of that contradiction to the most separated functionaries seems to have achieved a reverse effect to the commitment to common humanity that genocide prosecutions are supposed to serve. We now expect people caught up in the maw of mass killing to be vastly better than most might be in the same situation.
Assigned to gruesome, but non-lethal duties, Groening is implicitly required to at the very least have refused all duties connected to the mass killings, at which point he would have been in great peril. But the individual human is disregarded so that he can stand for the way in which we wish humanity would behave.
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We may well be thinking about them for hundreds of years; nothing else like them may come along, though radical evil has many forms. When future historians judge our recent history and look at the three decades of needless suffering and death imposed by the IMF debt-bomb, the 12 million who died when AIDS exploded back into Africa, the five million children a year who die from water-caused diarrhoea, dont expect to be found innocent.
In the meantime, what to do with Oskar Groening? If we had the courage we would admit that the legitimate desire to live gives one a lot of latitude when one is in hell, and that Groenings request for a transfer to active duty, accepting the risk of death so as not to be part of a killing machine, more than meets that halfway.
But most likely we wont, not out of fear that the guilty may avoid justice, but because we are not willing to surrender a final innocence about the triumph of good. This is not the Auschwitz guard we were looking for. |
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Yes, that says much more eloquently what i meant by the trial, and sentence, saying more about us than him. A fine and subtle thinker and writer, Rundle.
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Two more flags before I die! |
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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| stui magpie wrote: | Or maybe after the first one, 10, 100 killings you become somewhat desensitised. Rather than the need to do something increasing, it could reduce. The spirit slowly crushed. Think about the number of people who killed during war who had psychological issues afterward.
The old straw that breaks the camels back can work two ways. You've had enough and won't take it any more or you've taken too much and don't care anymore. |
Yes, that's a very good point too. Certainly something to consider when we deal with cases like these. Can we make the same moral judgement about actions committed in a barbaric environment as those committed in a society like ours? And how sure are we that we would act morally in such conditions?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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John Wren 
"Look after the game. It means so much to so many."
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
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this i think deserves its own thread but ...
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33560182
| Quote: | | "As I was leaving St Mary's College today I was struck , not by a branch, but by your radiant beauty. You must get these messages all the time. You're such an attractive tree," reads one profession of love - and according to Wood it is quite typical. |
who here fukking emails trees? own up.
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Purveyor of sanctimonious twaddle. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Big week working on the old house, so with a scotch in hand, and nothing on telly, I start trawling face book, 1st up the scum who destroyed our house, the missus hair has been in the last month, every colour of the rainbow, I kid you not, Not much too see, so through her (she's public) I go to her scumbag hubby, oh poor boy is a bit down! What a $$%^%%$ shame! I check his ugly mug in pics, and a couple of his posts, and look at the response, and there it is WTAFF!
One of his friends (he converses with so they know each other) is an unmistakabley familiar name - who used to be on nicks!
And no it ain't Pa!
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| John Wren wrote: | this i think deserves its own thread but ...
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33560182
| Quote: | | "As I was leaving St Mary's College today I was struck , not by a branch, but by your radiant beauty. You must get these messages all the time. You're such an attractive tree," reads one profession of love - and according to Wood it is quite typical. |
who here fukking emails trees? own up. |
We have some numbats, no doubt.
Just wait til the logical conclusion of this, when inevitably some hallucinating hipster is caught with his skinny jeans stuck on his calves, trying to copulate with Ethel the Elm tree.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Dangles
Balmey Army
Joined: 14 May 2015
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| TripleM ads calling Wayne Carey the game's greatest player like it's an indisputable fact. Seriously, WTF? |
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Wokko 
Come and take it.
Joined: 04 Oct 2005
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| I'd agree that Carey is the greatest I've ever seen, hard to compare different generations of players though. |
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Dangles
Balmey Army
Joined: 14 May 2015
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| Really? I'd never heard him described as that until I heard the TripleM ads. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
Modern era the apparent top 2 are Carey and Gablett snr, with Carey in front.
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Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Dangles
Balmey Army
Joined: 14 May 2015
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| I thought the consensus was that junior had gone past senior? |
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Jezza 
2023 PREMIERS!
Joined: 06 Sep 2010
Location: Ponsford End
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I always got the impression that Ablett Snr is still more highly regarded than his son.
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| 1902 | 1903 | 1910 | 1917 | 1919 | 1927 | 1928 | 1929 | 1930 | 1935 | 1936 | 1953 | 1958 | 1990 | 2010 | 2023 | |
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Tannin 
Can't remember
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Location: Huon Valley Tasmania
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Gablett snr, by a country mile. (Over Carey, I mean.)
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�Let's eat Grandma.� Commas save lives! |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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| stui magpie wrote: | | John Wren wrote: | this i think deserves its own thread but ...
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-33560182
| Quote: | | "As I was leaving St Mary's College today I was struck , not by a branch, but by your radiant beauty. You must get these messages all the time. You're such an attractive tree," reads one profession of love - and according to Wood it is quite typical. |
who here fukking emails trees? own up. |
We have some numbats, no doubt.
Just wait til the logical conclusion of this, when inevitably some hallucinating hipster is caught with his skinny jeans stuck on his calves, trying to copulate with Ethel the Elm tree. |
Stui, did you ever listen to Frank Zappa? Just wondering where you got "Ethel" the tree from?
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“I even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didn’t keep ‘em under long enough” Kinky Friedman |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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