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Stupied
Joined: 14 Mar 2013
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| Member 7167 wrote: | It is interesting to see that Hinkley has significantly increased the training regime for Port Adelaide and as a result they have improved significantly as a team and are the second best team in running out the 4th quarters in the last 12 months.
Tell me, why has the increase in training load been such as positive for Port and such a claimed destructive issue for Collingwood. Are we pushing harder than Port? Are our fitness staff incompetent (both this years and last years)
Sheer speculation would be a factor here would it?
It is easy to look at a result and identify a recent change as the cause. Pure supposition at best and virtually impossible to prove. |
We currently have the 6th youngest list in the AFL, and probably have more young players in our current 22 than any other team bar the expansion sides. I'd be interested to know the average age of the Port Adelaide squad. A few more preseasons under the belt on average would go a long way to explaining their superior fitness. |
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Member 7167 
"What Good Fortune For Governments That The People Do Not Think" - Adolf Hitler.
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Location: The Collibran Hideout
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| Stupied wrote: | | Member 7167 wrote: | It is interesting to see that Hinkley has significantly increased the training regime for Port Adelaide and as a result they have improved significantly as a team and are the second best team in running out the 4th quarters in the last 12 months.
Tell me, why has the increase in training load been such as positive for Port and such a claimed destructive issue for Collingwood. Are we pushing harder than Port? Are our fitness staff incompetent (both this years and last years)
Sheer speculation would be a factor here would it?
It is easy to look at a result and identify a recent change as the cause. Pure supposition at best and virtually impossible to prove. |
We currently have the 6th youngest list in the AFL, and probably have more young players in our current 22 than any other team bar the expansion sides. I'd be interested to know the average age of the Port Adelaide squad. A few more preseasons under the belt on average would go a long way to explaining their superior fitness. |
I would agree. Trouble is, if you subscribe to 35forever's theory. are players are being overtrained and as a result we are sustaining higher injury levels and the extra workload is not resulting in better on field performance.
Certainly the age factor could have both positive and negative influences in short and long term periods. |
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Stupied
Joined: 14 Mar 2013
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| I stopped paying attention to 35forever's rants a long time ago. |
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ThePieMind
Joined: 11 Apr 2009
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| Member 7167 wrote: | | Stupied wrote: | | Member 7167 wrote: | It is interesting to see that Hinkley has significantly increased the training regime for Port Adelaide and as a result they have improved significantly as a team and are the second best team in running out the 4th quarters in the last 12 months.
Tell me, why has the increase in training load been such as positive for Port and such a claimed destructive issue for Collingwood. Are we pushing harder than Port? Are our fitness staff incompetent (both this years and last years)
Sheer speculation would be a factor here would it?
It is easy to look at a result and identify a recent change as the cause. Pure supposition at best and virtually impossible to prove. |
We currently have the 6th youngest list in the AFL, and probably have more young players in our current 22 than any other team bar the expansion sides. I'd be interested to know the average age of the Port Adelaide squad. A few more preseasons under the belt on average would go a long way to explaining their superior fitness. |
I would agree. Trouble is, if you subscribe to 35forever's theory. are players are being overtrained and as a result we are sustaining higher injury levels and the extra workload is not resulting in better on field performance.
Certainly the age factor could have both positive and negative influences in short and long term periods. |
Last year Port recruited the fitness manager from Liverpool in the EPL who's s an Aussie.
EPL teams are extremely fit playing 2 games per week and over 40-50 games per yr.and "running capacity" is the focus. So he has made a major contribution to their improvement.
One of the commentators during the game mentioned that Port recruited an Rich player who was amongst RICH's Top 5 for aerobic capacity - but was not in Ports TOP 10.
Therefore Port also have a lot of natural runners. |
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Stupied
Joined: 14 Mar 2013
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Good point. Not sold yet on the new guy we got from St Vomit, but there have reportedly been a lot of PB's in the 2km time trials this preseason, so he may be making an improvement.
One thing is for sure, fitness alone can't be blamed for the poor effort vs Freo. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| Stupied wrote: | Good point. Not sold yet on the new guy we got from St Vomit, but there have reportedly been a lot of PB's in the 2km time trials this preseason, so he may be making an improvement.
One thing is for sure, fitness alone can't be blamed for the poor effort vs Freo. |
I CAN understand the frustration on here at present. We are only human. However you are right, you can't just blame ONE aspect for the loss last Friday, be it the coaching/player form/attitude/lack of skills/injuries/fitness/bad umpiring decisions/lack of momemtum etc.
It's far too early to isolate just one area or even a combination of factors as the SOLE reason for the one loss.
If we are still really struggling badly after 12 rounds and not being competitive, then I reckon hard questions will need to be asked and ALL areas looked at thoroughly. |
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Member 7167
"What Good Fortune For Governments That The People Do Not Think" - Adolf Hitler.
Joined: 18 Dec 2008
Location: The Collibran Hideout
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| Lazza wrote: | | Stupied wrote: | Good point. Not sold yet on the new guy we got from St Vomit, but there have reportedly been a lot of PB's in the 2km time trials this preseason, so he may be making an improvement.
One thing is for sure, fitness alone can't be blamed for the poor effort vs Freo. |
I CAN understand the frustration on here at present. We are only human. However you are right, you can't just blame ONE aspect for the loss last Friday, be it the coaching/player form/attitude/lack of skills/injuries/fitness/bad umpiring decisions/lack of momemtum etc.
It's far too early to isolate just one area or even a combination of factors as the SOLE reason for the one loss.
If we are still really struggling badly after 12 rounds and not being competitive, then I reckon hard questions will need to be asked and ALL areas looked at thoroughly. |
Like many on here, I have watched a hell of a lot of Collingwood football games.
One thing that I have noticed that if the expend a lot of energy gaining on field dominance, as a result of poor goal kicking and poor disposal resulting in turnovers, the team eventually hits the wall and it is rare that we reverse this trend and win.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen but the emotional burden can have very adverse outcomes a significant amount of the time.
As a result, in reality the poor goal kicking can have an exponential effect upon our results. At quarter time last Friday night I felt that this was where we were placed in respect to our momentum and head space. Unfortunately time proved that my gut feeling was correct on this occasion. |
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Lazza
Joined: 04 Feb 2003
Location: Bendigo, Victoria, Australia
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| Member 7167 wrote: | | Lazza wrote: | | Stupied wrote: | Good point. Not sold yet on the new guy we got from St Vomit, but there have reportedly been a lot of PB's in the 2km time trials this preseason, so he may be making an improvement.
One thing is for sure, fitness alone can't be blamed for the poor effort vs Freo. |
I CAN understand the frustration on here at present. We are only human. However you are right, you can't just blame ONE aspect for the loss last Friday, be it the coaching/player form/attitude/lack of skills/injuries/fitness/bad umpiring decisions/lack of momemtum etc.
It's far too early to isolate just one area or even a combination of factors as the SOLE reason for the one loss.
If we are still really struggling badly after 12 rounds and not being competitive, then I reckon hard questions will need to be asked and ALL areas looked at thoroughly. |
Like many on here, I have watched a hell of a lot of Collingwood football games.
One thing that I have noticed that if the expend a lot of energy gaining on field dominance, as a result of poor goal kicking and poor disposal resulting in turnovers, the team eventually hits the wall and it is rare that we reverse this trend and win.
I'm not saying it doesn't happen but the emotional burden can have very adverse outcomes a significant amount of the time.
As a result, in reality the poor goal kicking can have an exponential effect upon our results. At quarter time last Friday night I felt that this was where we were placed in respect to our momentum and head space. Unfortunately time proved that my gut feeling was correct on this occasion. |
Very good point Member 7167. Hadn't considered that aspect of Friday night's game. Makes it even more important that we convert most of our chances in front of goal. This is vital to us winning as you said. |
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Stupied
Joined: 14 Mar 2013
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I have decided to subscribe to Breadcrawls umpire conspiracy theory. I can pinpoint the exact moment in the second qtr when the pies stopped bothering. It was when McCaffer (I think) had the ball rebounding from the Dockers fwd line. He had taken a mark and looked to handball. The dockers player ran over the mark and knocked the ball out of his hands before play on had been called.
Instead of a 50m penalty the ump called play on, and the turnover resulted in a goal. We never recovered. Momentum gone. Conspiracy! Conspiracy I tell you!!! |
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35forever
"I feel sick - dada dada dada da"
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Physical=Sunshine Coast -- Mental=Vic Park
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| ThePieMind wrote: | @35 forever
I admire your passion which is clearly evident in your post.
However your basic premise is flawed because it was not possible for MM to continue.
The club negotiated a transitional agreement that got us a flag.
It is clearly and completely illogical to assume that the club could tear up the agreement without legal repercussions in order to allow MM to continue.
It would have been a regrettable development that would have poured scorn on the professionalism of the club.
In hindsight there should have been a clause in the contract giving MM an automatic contract extension in the event that he won a flag over the period.
All your other concerns are purely a function of the loss of experience in the playing list through injury and retirement.ie culture, opponent intimidation,
Fluency, confidence, and team chemistry
To avoid this generational change reappearing we need to build an enduring culture like GEEL and the SWANS have done so successfully, with Leading Teams (LT).
The inevitable disruption of LT will be worth it and we will benefit from the lessons LT have learnt with other clubs therefore we should be able to do it better. |
Geez 'Thepiemind', You tell me that my basic premise is flawed, then proceed to demonstrate that you don't know what my basic premise IS!
Not meaning to be critical, but where in my epic post (I do apologise that I can't seem to express myself more briefly) did I suggest that getting Mick back was the way forward? I know it's long, but you can't refute an argument if you don't read it! I clearly stated that getting Mick back was NOT a good idea or a possibility, neither did I discuss how we should have retained him!
But for your benefit I will. If three parties had agreed, in 2010 or 2011 that MM needed to stay at the helm it could have been achieved quite easily. I never suggested that the contract we made with Bucks should be ignored, you're right, it would have been disastrous. But why oh WHY did Mick, Eddie & Bucks not sit down and discuss the fact that we would look utterly ridiculous dumping the game's most successful coach for a complete novice?
Hell, maybe they did, surely they did!? if so only one person was in a position to say " okay, lets postpone the "succession". That was N. Buckley. He must have refused and/or threatened legal action. That has never been mentioned, but I imagine the contract's 'no competition' clause was pretty comprehensive, it was pretty obvious to me that MM wanted to say things but couldn't.
En... nee... way...
That stuff didn't happen. What did happen is history, and despite my certainty that it was the dumbest move in history I said, time & again, that Buckley must now be allowed to coach, dropping him before 2014 would simply add another f**kup to the ever-growing list.
But lawdy, how that list as grown! It's grown like a thunderstorm cell and now that mature storm is all growed up & has blown the premiership window firmly shut. Eddie & co can't do anything to force the window open, they're stuck inside the house. Only someone from outside can save the day.
And THAT, my friends, is my 'basic premise', I'll spell it out one more time for those in the cheap seats!
Eddie, Pert, and Buckley, have not, can not, and will not admit to making a single mistake, it's never going to happen no matter how obvious it is to the world or how far we fall.
For THAT reason, they need to go. Their only option is to keep making decisions that make it look, technically, like they were right, they need to hope the world will blame the injury run & the players for the dark days looming like a vast cumulonimbus ahead of us. They need to be right more than they need success for the club, and that will continue to cost us dearly.
Think about it, just for a minute, you'll soon see that the only way forward is through change at the highest levels. The alternative is to go forward with great players but a broken culture. This is EXACTLY what Melbourne has done for a decade, what Brisbane is in the middle of doing.
How long will we do it?
_________________
"If at first you dont succeed...
... oh who cares, we did it!!!!!"
-me, 2010
"The pies are going to the big dance!"-P.Daicos 2010
Visit My Website! |
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35forever
"I feel sick - dada dada dada da"
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Physical=Sunshine Coast -- Mental=Vic Park
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What I'm saying here is simply what everyone, media, supporters & members alike, will be saying after a few more rounds of insipid, low scoring losses.
Right now it's not even about Buckley's obvious lack of coaching ability, it's about, yes, that word again... culture.
Look at the cultures (and I do agree it's an overused & often erroneous term, the word 'mood' would describe the phenomenon just as well), at clubs like Richmond, Port, GWS, GCS, Hawthorn, Geelong, & Freo, even at West Coast, Melbourne, and the Dogs to a lesser extent The mood there is positive, the fans, members and players truly believe in the plan laid out by the coaching staff & that is evident in the on-field performances.
This is not the case with us, or with Brisbane & Essendon. Oh we SAY we believe, in fact were saying it ad nauseam, the Prez & players are going on and on about it at every opportunity, in fact if anything we're saying it too much. Look at the 2013 Coleman, that was the most shameless piece of propaganda I have ever cringed to watch. It was abundantly clear that all senior players were trotted out & told to applaud Buckley's greatness and swear allegiance to the dear leader and his glorious five-year plan at every opportunity. I've never seen senior players sweat that much in formal wear! You could almost see Eddie just out of shot drawing his finger across his throat if a guy got off-message!
(I do realise I've merged dictators there, but you get the idea... )
Of course saying you believe and actually believing are very different things. Players are not that difficult to read, they tell you volumes about their psychological state with their actions. When a player stands in front of goal on a 45, and is confident in their own ability, as well as utterly sanguine about the club, it's officers and it's direction, he not only slots the ball, he puts it directly north of the goal ump's headwear. It's not like it's a difficult proposition, most Australian kids can kick a footy straight by age 5! I know I certainly can, and my playing days are closer to the Pre-Cambrian than to 2014!
But no, you say! You try that at Etihad on a Friday night in font of 50 thousand!
You're right, of course. That would be a far more difficult thing!!
"Why?" I shout, "There is no difference, they're the exact same thing with the same set of legs, on the same surface."
Was that the sound of a penny hitting the shag-pile I heard?
Yes, the psychology is vastly important. It's crucial. The CEO knew this when he vomited forth his moronic "Premiership window" mouth-fart.
There were 5 people in a small village in South-West Cameroon who believed him. Far as I know that's it. Not that it's impossible that we win the flag. I certainly expect better things next week, and who knows, it could stir a winning streak! It was HOW he said it. "Mealy mouthed' is an interesting phrase don't you think? It simply wasn't the statement of a man who's already booked the band for the Grand Final night party.
I wouldn't be surprised if we knock over Sydney, we have had their number for a long time, and they have to be a tad shellshocked. But who's putting a grey nurse on us the week after? With our wlwlwlwl record in recent times I wouldn't sell the family silver to chuck it on us against the moggies. At that point we'll be pretty sure it's gonna be an "also ran" season. The kind where we just scrape into the 8 and are bundled out before much of a tilt ignites. At best!
For the first time in years no one in the media sees us as a threat, and while I agree that they're a bunch of overpriced hacks (The state of sports-journalism in this country really has hit a low ebb of late, remember when they had to be able to spell?) they are closer to the game than most of us, and that air of bravado & confidence we had as recently as last year (before we went down to Ablett's kiddies) just isn't there. And everyone, yes, you included, gentle reader, knows it. Can you see us suddenly solving our kicking problem? For that was the number one reason we were so easily disposed of. We had thirty shots, thirty! (including OOF & those which fell short), Even a 50/50 conversion rate sees us winning, or at least sees a very different game. The stats back this up completely. We won clearances, contested pozzies, and tackles, and the stats we lost were very close, except the inside 50's, those being the result of many midfield turnovers and a leaky back-line.
No, it wasn't Friday night that convinced me change was necessary, it was the last round against North last year, and week one of the finals. The first time we'd lost back to back in years, and the first time we'd lost a close encounter since Rd.8 2011. After that god-awful night, brought about by criminal umpiring, we rallied to go undefeated right through to the final round of the H&A, which was a dead rubber fought out by guys who were desperate not to be injured for the following months action.
But not this time. We followed the insipid performance against North with another against Port, after which the Dear Leader took zero responsibility, preferring to name players he didn't like, and a culture he didn't understand. After that the Club started a campaign of lies, obfuscation & cheap shots against champion players. All this made it very clear to me that we needed to make big changes. Our officers had made ridiculous decisions and were now reduced to lying about it. They will never admit they did anything wrong, and for that reason they can never address or repair our on-field malaise.
There's an old (actually not that old) saying: "Change direction or you'll end up where you're heading."
The sooner we do that the sooner we will start turning things around.
_________________
"If at first you dont succeed...
... oh who cares, we did it!!!!!"
-me, 2010
"The pies are going to the big dance!"-P.Daicos 2010
Visit My Website! |
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Geelongpie
Joined: 11 Aug 2008
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Reid a no show at training today.
_________________
Collingwood = Everything Carlton dream to be. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| 35forever wrote: | What I'm saying here is simply what everyone, media, supporters & members alike, will be saying after a few more rounds of insipid, low scoring losses.
Right now it's not even about Buckley's obvious lack of coaching ability, it's about, yes, that word again... culture.
Look at the cultures (and I do agree it's an overused & often erroneous term, the word 'mood' would describe the phenomenon just as well), at clubs like Richmond, Port, GWS, GCS, Hawthorn, Geelong, & Freo, even at West Coast, Melbourne, and the Dogs to a lesser extent The mood there is positive, the fans, members and players truly believe in the plan laid out by the coaching staff & that is evident in the on-field performances.
This is not the case with us, or with Brisbane & Essendon. Oh we SAY we believe, in fact were saying it ad nauseam, the Prez & players are going on and on about it at every opportunity, in fact if anything we're saying it too much. Look at the 2013 Coleman, that was the most shameless piece of propaganda I have ever cringed to watch. It was abundantly clear that all senior players were trotted out & told to applaud Buckley's greatness and swear allegiance to the dear leader and his glorious five-year plan at every opportunity. I've never seen senior players sweat that much in formal wear! You could almost see Eddie just out of shot drawing his finger across his throat if a guy got off-message!
(I do realise I've merged dictators there, but you get the idea... )
Of course saying you believe and actually believing are very different things. Players are not that difficult to read, they tell you volumes about their psychological state with their actions. When a player stands in front of goal on a 45, and is confident in their own ability, as well as utterly sanguine about the club, it's officers and it's direction, he not only slots the ball, he puts it directly north of the goal ump's headwear. It's not like it's a difficult proposition, most Australian kids can kick a footy straight by age 5! I know I certainly can, and my playing days are closer to the Pre-Cambrian than to 2014!
But no, you say! You try that at Etihad on a Friday night in font of 50 thousand!
You're right, of course. That would be a far more difficult thing!!
"Why?" I shout, "There is no difference, they're the exact same thing with the same set of legs, on the same surface."
Was that the sound of a penny hitting the shag-pile I heard?
Yes, the psychology is vastly important. It's crucial. The CEO knew this when he vomited forth his moronic "Premiership window" mouth-fart.
There were 5 people in a small village in South-West Cameroon who believed him. Far as I know that's it. Not that it's impossible that we win the flag. I certainly expect better things next week, and who knows, it could stir a winning streak! It was HOW he said it. "Mealy mouthed' is an interesting phrase don't you think? It simply wasn't the statement of a man who's already booked the band for the Grand Final night party.
I wouldn't be surprised if we knock over Sydney, we have had their number for a long time, and they have to be a tad shellshocked. But who's putting a grey nurse on us the week after? With our wlwlwlwl record in recent times I wouldn't sell the family silver to chuck it on us against the moggies. At that point we'll be pretty sure it's gonna be an "also ran" season. The kind where we just scrape into the 8 and are bundled out before much of a tilt ignites. At best!
For the first time in years no one in the media sees us as a threat, and while I agree that they're a bunch of overpriced hacks (The state of sports-journalism in this country really has hit a low ebb of late, remember when they had to be able to spell?) they are closer to the game than most of us, and that air of bravado & confidence we had as recently as last year (before we went down to Ablett's kiddies) just isn't there. And everyone, yes, you included, gentle reader, knows it. Can you see us suddenly solving our kicking problem? For that was the number one reason we were so easily disposed of. We had thirty shots, thirty! (including OOF & those which fell short), Even a 50/50 conversion rate sees us winning, or at least sees a very different game. The stats back this up completely. We won clearances, contested pozzies, and tackles, and the stats we lost were very close, except the inside 50's, those being the result of many midfield turnovers and a leaky back-line.
No, it wasn't Friday night that convinced me change was necessary, it was the last round against North last year, and week one of the finals. The first time we'd lost back to back in years, and the first time we'd lost a close encounter since Rd.8 2011. After that god-awful night, brought about by criminal umpiring, we rallied to go undefeated right through to the final round of the H&A, which was a dead rubber fought out by guys who were desperate not to be injured for the following months action.
But not this time. We followed the insipid performance against North with another against Port, after which the Dear Leader took zero responsibility, preferring to name players he didn't like, and a culture he didn't understand. After that the Club started a campaign of lies, obfuscation & cheap shots against champion players. All this made it very clear to me that we needed to make big changes. Our officers had made ridiculous decisions and were now reduced to lying about it. They will never admit they did anything wrong, and for that reason they can never address or repair our on-field malaise.
There's an old (actually not that old) saying: "Change direction or you'll end up where you're heading."
The sooner we do that the sooner we will start turning things around. |
I'm not sure if I can see us solving our kicking problem or not. |
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Albert Parker
Joined: 13 Dec 2012
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| 35forever wrote: |
Look at the cultures (and I do agree it's an overused & often erroneous term, the word 'mood' would describe the phenomenon just as well), at clubs like Richmond, Port, GWS, GCS, Hawthorn, Geelong, & Freo, even at West Coast, Melbourne, and the Dogs to a lesser extent The mood there is positive, the fans, members and players truly believe in the plan laid out by the coaching staff & that is evident in the on-field performances.
This is not the case with us, or with Brisbane & Essendon. |
I'd take the way Essendon attacked week 1 over the way Richmond did. Not good illustrations!
_________________
One team, one dream - the Pies and this year's premiership |
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35forever
"I feel sick - dada dada dada da"
Joined: 23 Feb 2005
Location: Physical=Sunshine Coast -- Mental=Vic Park
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Yes AP, I agree totally, despite all the lies, dishonesty and possible cheating by Essendon, the playing group have performed admirably (god, that hurts to write, my keyboard just exploded!). Sometimes adversity bonds a playing group like nothing else can. The incredible thing is that this whole drug saga could end up benefitting the club immensely. Sure it's cost them a couple mill, and a couple of draft picks, but they've ended up with a far, far better coach (I'd be surprised to see drug boy getting his job back) and a real sense of "Us against the world", just the kind of thing Buckley has tried to install just by saying so... that dawg jus' don't hunt!
_________________
"If at first you dont succeed...
... oh who cares, we did it!!!!!"
-me, 2010
"The pies are going to the big dance!"-P.Daicos 2010
Visit My Website! |
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