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David 
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| think positive wrote: | | ah Liam Jurrah in trouble again. hands up if you want your kid wearing this guys number on his jumper, 5 times over the leagl limit, .257. |
I'd raise my hand to that, and I think it's sad that you wouldn't.
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Brenny
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
Location: Westpac Centre
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^ I wouldn't.
It's a waste of a spot on the list if he is going to be constantly in trouble with the law - by that I mean having to attend court sessions and being unfit due to not looking after himself.
Fact is, the kid is a menace and the club wouldn't go after him anyway. It's a null and void discussion really.
The club removed him once, for what reasons I don't know, but there is no way in hell he is coming back.
The fact they made Williams do charity work is bad enough if you aks me, though it's very minor in the scheme of things and possible he would be doing it anyway. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | ah Liam Jurrah in trouble again. hands up if you want your kid wearing this guys number on his jumper, 5 times over the leagl limit, .257. |
I'd raise my hand to that, and I think it's sad that you wouldn't. |
You'll change your thinking one day when David junior wants to go out drinking with his mates in his car!
He's a bad influence, to his team mates and every club supporter, wether that's right or wrong, it's fact of nature of the human beast
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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I'll change my thinking when you provide evidence showing that Jurrah's indiscretions could influence David Jr to do anything.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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Brenny
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
Location: Westpac Centre
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| think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | ah Liam Jurrah in trouble again. hands up if you want your kid wearing this guys number on his jumper, 5 times over the leagl limit, .257. |
I'd raise my hand to that, and I think it's sad that you wouldn't. |
You'll change your thinking one day when David junior wants to go out drinking with his mates in his car!
He's a bad influence, to his team mates and every club supporter, wether that's right or wrong, it's fact of nature of the human beast |
Personally TP, I don't think this particular case with Jurrah, can be qualified back to 'being a role model'.
I think after continuous screw ups, there becomes a point where people just give up and don't expect you to 'be a good bloke'. If anybody is looking up to Jurrah, in any form of the word, then they are just as big of a screw up as him.
Personally, taking away his indiscretions, I think it's more relevant to suggest that clubs wouldn't take him as you can only fit 44 or so on the list and there isn't room for a player to be unfit and spending their time in court.
I personally don't trust Jurrah to be fit enough or stay out of trouble with the law. By staying out of trouble, I mean doing things that are going to distract him from the task at hand. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| Brenny wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | David wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | ah Liam Jurrah in trouble again. hands up if you want your kid wearing this guys number on his jumper, 5 times over the leagl limit, .257. |
I'd raise my hand to that, and I think it's sad that you wouldn't. |
You'll change your thinking one day when David junior wants to go out drinking with his mates in his car!
He's a bad influence, to his team mates and every club supporter, wether that's right or wrong, it's fact of nature of the human beast |
Personally TP, I don't think this particular case with Jurrah, can be qualified back to 'being a role model'.
I think after continuous screw ups, there becomes a point where people just give up and don't expect you to 'be a good bloke'. If anybody is looking up to Jurrah, in any form of the word, then they are just as big of a screw up as him.
Personally, taking away his indiscretions, I think it's more relevant to suggest that clubs wouldn't take him as you can only fit 44 or so on the list and there isn't room for a player to be unfit and spending their time in court.
I personally don't trust Jurrah to be fit enough or stay out of trouble with the law. By staying out of trouble, I mean doing things that are going to distract him from the task at hand. |
thats a fair point brenny, totally agree
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You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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3rd degree 
Joined: 22 Jun 2004
Location: John Wren's tote
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The fact they made Williams do charity work is bad enough if you aks me, though it's very minor in the scheme of things and possible he would be doing it anyway.[/quote]
And if they didnt do anything for this incident the club would be looked at and scrutinised for doing nothing!
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" Ohhh Banksy and out comes the Note Book".
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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| David wrote: | | I'll change my thinking when you provide evidence showing that Jurrah's indiscretions could influence David Jr to do anything. |
But Jurrah may influence him to play football. As a football role model. Nothing else. Also Liam Jurrah has significant others (family freinds etc tec) so its possible he may be a role model to them.
Hence my orginial statement of the devide between being an on field as opposed to an off field role model as well as the relationship to the player.
Are footballers role models. The answer is yes -but only within certain circumstances / situations.
This threads like a merry go round!
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No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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Yes, but we got somewhere by establishing the very point that you raise. If you take the next logical step and conclude that Jurrah the awe-inspiring footballer might encourage kids to take up football, but that Jurrah, the troubled young man from the outback is highly unlikely to encourage kids to drink-drive or wield machetes, then you've pretty much arrived at my point of view. Welcome to the fold, brother! 
| September Zeros wrote: | | Also Liam Jurrah has significant others (family freinds etc tec) so its possible he may be a role model to them. |
That's a distraction: you're no longer talking about Liam Jurrah, the footballer-as-public-figure; you're talking about Liam Jurrah the team-mate, cousin and friend — just like you or I are somebody's work colleague, relative or acquaintance. That's an important distinction because we're no longer talking about Liam Jurrah, the potential corrupter of the nation's young (a complete absurdity), but Liam Jurrah, the possibly influential figure in his small circle of contact. If you can get your head around that, you will realise that this point actually completely undermines the role model argument.
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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| David wrote: | Yes, but we got somewhere by establishing the very point that you raise. If you take the next logical step and conclude that Jurrah the awe-inspiring footballer might encourage kids to take up football, but that Jurrah, the troubled young man from the outback is highly unlikely to encourage kids to drink-drive or wield machetes, then you've pretty much arrived at my point of view. Welcome to the fold, brother!
Thats because right from the start i agreed with you that off field they are not role models especially to "insignificant others" but i added that on field they may well be. You were arguing with me...... not vise versa.
| September Zeros wrote: | | Also Liam Jurrah has significant others (family freinds etc tec) so its possible he may be a role model to them. |
That's a distraction: you're no longer talking about Liam Jurrah, the footballer-as-public-figure; you're talking about Liam Jurrah the team-mate, cousin and friend — just like you or I are somebody's work colleague, relative or acquaintance. That's an important distinction because we're no longer talking about Liam Jurrah, the potential corrupter of the nation's young (a complete absurdity), but Liam Jurrah, the possibly influential figure in his small circle of contact. If you can get your head around that, you will realise that this point actually completely undermines the role model argument.
I am talking about Liam Jurrah the footballer, the team mate the cousin the friend the whatever. He can be a role model in both scenarios. Both as a footballer (in an on field sense) to insignificant others and in an off field sense as a significant other ie cousin lover brother mother etc... .
Once again in answering the initial question of are footballers role models. The answer is yes they can be.....but not always.
Dont corrupt my argument by twisting it.
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No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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David
I dare you to try
Joined: 27 Jul 2003
Location: Andromeda
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| September Zeros wrote: | | am talking about Liam Jurrah the footballer, the team mate the cousin the friend the whatever. He can be a role model in both scenarios. Both as a footballer (in an on field sense) to insignificant others and in an off field sense as a significant other ie cousin lover brother mother etc... . |
My point is that these two relationships are quite distinct. That's not the same thing as a wishy-washy "Yes, they can be, but not always", it's a "yes" in one specific area and a "no" in the other. Essentially, that's what I've been arguing all along.
In any case, the real role model argument rests on the assertion that children may be negatively influenced by footballers' off-field indiscretions. I'm glad that we both agree that that's rubbish, and sorry if I incorrectly asserted otherwise; I just wonder how we can convince the league's administrators and the football 'experts' of this elementary point?
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All watched over by machines of loving grace |
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| 3rd degree wrote: | | And if they didnt do anything for this incident the club would be looked at and scrutinised for doing nothing! |
Agreed, 3rd.
But that just means the bastards get you either way; in other words, it's still the frothing mob pulling the strings and pretending it's really just the mystical powers of karma working its magic!
Sub-optimal are such ill-considered processes, 3rd. Sub-optimal. And sometimes extremely destructive.
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In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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| David wrote: | | September Zeros wrote: | | am talking about Liam Jurrah the footballer, the team mate the cousin the friend the whatever. He can be a role model in both scenarios. Both as a footballer (in an on field sense) to insignificant others and in an off field sense as a significant other ie cousin lover brother mother etc... . |
My point is that these two relationships are quite distinct. That's not the same thing as a wishy-washy "Yes, they can be, but not always", it's a "yes" in one specific area and a "no" in the other. Essentially, that's what I've been arguing all along.
In any case, the real role model argument rests on the assertion that children may be negatively influenced by footballers' off-field indiscretions. I'm glad that we both agree that that's rubbish, and sorry if I incorrectly asserted otherwise; I just wonder how we can convince the league's administrators and the football 'experts' of this elementary point? |
If you wrap the point up in lots of money and deliver it on a platter of solid gold they may hear you out.
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No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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pietillidie
Joined: 07 Jan 2005
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| September Zeros wrote: | | David wrote: | | I'll change my thinking when you provide evidence showing that Jurrah's indiscretions could influence David Jr to do anything. |
But Jurrah may influence him to play football. As a football role model. Nothing else. Also Liam Jurrah has significant others (family freinds etc tec) so its possible he may be a role model to them.
Hence my orginial statement of the devide between being an on field as opposed to an off field role model as well as the relationship to the player.
Are footballers role models. The answer is yes -but only within certain circumstances / situations. |
Re-working the definition of "role model" to something so narrow and trivial, and so different to what the rabid mob thinks it means, is a good out for people who answered in the affirmative only to realise on second blush the notion of "role model" as popularly conceived is pre-scientific rot as David and I have been arguing.
I like the approach--climb aboard the logic train with your pants on, folks!
_________________
In the end the rain comes down, washes clean the streets of a blue sky town.
Help Nick's: http://www.magpies.net/nick/bb/fundraising.htm |
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September Zeros
Joined: 04 Oct 2012
Location: Behind you
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| pietillidie wrote: | | September Zeros wrote: | | David wrote: | | I'll change my thinking when you provide evidence showing that Jurrah's indiscretions could influence David Jr to do anything. |
But Jurrah may influence him to play football. As a football role model. Nothing else. Also Liam Jurrah has significant others (family freinds etc tec) so its possible he may be a role model to them.
Hence my orginial statement of the devide between being an on field as opposed to an off field role model as well as the relationship to the player.
Are footballers role models. The answer is yes -but only within certain circumstances / situations. |
Re-working the definition of "role model" to something so narrow and trivial, and so different to what the rabid mob thinks it means, is a good out for people who answered in the affirmative only to realise on second blush the notion of "role model" as popularly conceived is pre-scientific rot as David and I have been arguing.
I like the approach--climb aboard the logic train with your pants on, folks! |
Ummmm actually i havnt changed my tact or opinion the entire length of this thread bucko. Nor have I conveniently "re-worked" definitions but rather clarified them (often for my own benefit). There is such a thing as people discussing a topic and reaching a common understanding of the topic on neutral gound. For example David has often influenced my opinion. Its called having an open mind and not siimply spewing your self righteous views all over the place.
Once again to be very clear of my position " are footballers role models" answer (IMO) yes. A very general answer to a very general question.
The narrow and trivial definitions given were so people like you who believed flat out that they were not role models, could actually understand that in some cases indeed they are. And that perhaps its a little more complicated than "pre-scientific rot" if you take the time to disect it. But again if you ask a general question, you get a general answer. What we did here is ask more specific questions and explore more specific answers. So go puff your chest out to someone else. Eventually you'll impress somebody.
One last thing.....Is it a logic train? or a pompous train? Either way with you driving it........i'll catch the bus. 
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No Pressure, No Diamonds
They used to be a happy team at hawthorn.
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