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Duff Soviet Union
Joined: 17 Aug 2010
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| ClokingDevice wrote: | | Duff Soviet Union wrote: | A few points here:
1. I don't think Dayne Beams "owes" Collingwood anything. |
You sure he doesn't owe us a few decent finals? |
Yeah, ok, maybe that.
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"We ain't gotta dream no more" |
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ClokingDevice
Joined: 14 May 2012
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| Duff Soviet Union wrote: | | ClokingDevice wrote: | | Duff Soviet Union wrote: | A few points here:
1. I don't think Dayne Beams "owes" Collingwood anything. |
You sure he doesn't owe us a few decent finals? |
Yeah, ok, maybe that. |
If he goes or stays lets hope he's got 3 pearlers in him.. and lets cash them all in this year 
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We will feast on their bones |
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Invigoration
Joined: 22 Sep 2010
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| ClokingDevice wrote: | | Piesnchess wrote: | | I have a notion that, if we can win the flag, that Johnno and didak will retire, so wouldnt that make the room in our cap to accomodate Beams. ? |
A flag and Jolly and Tarrant would retire too, and that would get us across the line easily you'd think |
These comments always make me laugh. You blokes must think Geoff Walsh and co came down in the last shower. Do you honestly not think these sort of things have already been taken into consideration? The fans aren't the only ones who realise Johnno, Tarrant and co are close to retirement, I can assure you they have already been accounted for. Walsh isn't going to have an epiphany tomorrow and suddenly realise we have an 500kin the kitty to play with because a few blokes over 30 are on the brink of retirement. This stuff is planned months, if not years in advance.
Where do you think we are summoning up the extra 300k we are offering for Travis Cloke? The extra amount we recently paid for pay increases to Sidebottom, Pendlebury, Thomas and Swan? We didn't conjure it out of thin air. The retirements, changes to the veteran's list (which actually gets reduced next year), the delistings etc... all of it, already accounted for well before now and even with it catered for, our position is still as tenuous as it ever was.
Tarrant and Johnson will be the only two to retire anyway, and both would be on absolute peanuts at the moment. I think Tarrant stated openly he is already pretty much playing for minimum wage, his retirement is hardly going to instantaneously ease the pressure of re-signing Cloke, Beams, Wellingham, Reid and O'Brien.
Not sure why you mention Jolly. He is contracted to next year at a minimum, his salary for next year is already accounted for and I see absolutely no reason why he'd retire; he said as much himself about 2 weeks ago. Didak's in the same boat. He'll return from injury in a week, is contracted for next year and only recently flagged his intention to at least see out next year. If we are hedging our bets on re-signing all these guys on the back of two contracted guys retiring if we win the flag, then I'd advise you start preparing yourselves for the inevitable departure of one of our uncontracted players.
My thoughts at this stage are;
a) Cloke's demands are excessive and hampering the list as a whole, I don't even think he is worth the 750k we are offering let alone the 800-1 mil his side is demanding
b) Even with his demands, Cloke is one of the most unlikeliest uncontracted players to leave, we won't let it happen. It would be the worst case scenario to lose him both in terms of the health of our 22 and in terms of compensation. Losing Cloke as a FA would be a huge kick in the balls because of how lacking the compensation model is. All of the other guys (except maybe Harry?) aren't free-agents and hence would be preferred over Cloke to leave.
You get maximum one first rounder for a free-agent, to my knowledge it's to be taken after your own pick in that year. For us, that means we'd currently get pick 19 for Travis Cloke... in my mind, that's probably not even much better than what we'd get for Wellingham, so it's pretty devastating.
c) Re-signing Beams will require extra money not previously accounted for, but it will be money that will be found. We won't lose Beams.
d) We will lose an uncontracted player in my opinion.
Reid, Cloke and Beams are all non-negotiable in my mind. Harry is club committed and the sort of person I see as being willing to play under their market value, ala Chris Dawes - both realise they have a life after football, both realise they aren't world beaters and both feel indebted to the club to a certain extent. So my thinking at the moment is that it will be Wellingham, and personally, I think that all things considered, it probably isn't a bad result. He isn't a free-agent, he isn't vital to our success as our club, his improvement hasn't been as rapid as a few similarly priced and aged guys around him and he occupies a part of our list in terms of player profiling that we are probably best stocked in (although he has pace, which is something we don't have in abundance).
Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but that's my view of the situation currently.
Just as a side note, is Cameron Wood contracted? He'd surprisingly probably be on similar money to Wellingham and I know who I'd prefer to keep.
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Brown re his GF omission:
"It’s not about me & it never has been. It’s about the team & it’s about Collingwood & it’s about the 22 other blokes out there on the park. That’s all that matters to me" |
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Trezegol
Joined: 16 Sep 2005
Location: Doncaster East
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| Invigoration wrote: | | ClokingDevice wrote: | | Piesnchess wrote: | | I have a notion that, if we can win the flag, that Johnno and didak will retire, so wouldnt that make the room in our cap to accomodate Beams. ? |
A flag and Jolly and Tarrant would retire too, and that would get us across the line easily you'd think |
These comments always make me laugh. You blokes must think Geoff Walsh and co came down in the last shower. Do you honestly not think these sort of things have already been taken into consideration? The fans aren't the only ones who realise Johnno, Tarrant and co are close to retirement, I can assure you they have already been accounted for. Walsh isn't going to have an epiphany tomorrow and suddenly realise we have an 500kin the kitty to play with because a few blokes over 30 are on the brink of retirement. This stuff is planned months, if not years in advance.
Where do you think we are summoning up the extra 300k we are offering for Travis Cloke? The extra amount we recently paid for pay increases to Sidebottom, Pendlebury, Thomas and Swan? We didn't conjure it out of thin air. The retirements, changes to the veteran's list (which actually gets reduced next year), the delistings etc... all of it, already accounted for well before now and even with it catered for, our position is still as tenuous as it ever was.
Tarrant and Johnson will be the only two to retire anyway, and both would be on absolute peanuts at the moment. I think Tarrant stated openly he is already pretty much playing for minimum wage, his retirement is hardly going to instantaneously ease the pressure of re-signing Cloke, Beams, Wellingham, Reid and O'Brien.
Not sure why you mention Jolly. He is contracted to next year at a minimum, his salary for next year is already accounted for and I see absolutely no reason why he'd retire; he said as much himself about 2 weeks ago. Didak's in the same boat. He'll return from injury in a week, is contracted for next year and only recently flagged his intention to at least see out next year. If we are hedging our bets on re-signing all these guys on the back of two contracted guys retiring if we win the flag, then I'd advise you start preparing yourselves for the inevitable departure of one of our uncontracted players.
My thoughts at this stage are;
a) Cloke's demands are excessive and hampering the list as a whole, I don't even think he is worth the 750k we are offering let alone the 800-1 mil his side is demanding
b) Even with his demands, Cloke is one of the most unlikeliest uncontracted players to leave, we won't let it happen. It would be the worst case scenario to lose him both in terms of the health of our 22 and in terms of compensation. Losing Cloke as a FA would be a huge kick in the balls because of how lacking the compensation model is. All of the other guys (except maybe Harry?) aren't free-agents and hence would be preferred over Cloke to leave.
You get maximum one first rounder for a free-agent, to my knowledge it's to be taken after your own pick in that year. For us, that means we'd currently get pick 19 for Travis Cloke... in my mind, that's probably not even much better than what we'd get for Wellingham, so it's pretty devastating.
c) Re-signing Beams will require extra money not previously accounted for, but it will be money that will be found. We won't lose Beams.
d) We will lose an uncontracted player in my opinion.
Reid, Cloke and Beams are all non-negotiable in my mind. Harry is club committed and the sort of person I see as being willing to play under their market value, ala Chris Dawes - both realise they have a life after football, both realise they aren't world beaters and both feel indebted to the club to a certain extent. So my thinking at the moment is that it will be Wellingham, and personally, I think that all things considered, it probably isn't a bad result. He isn't a free-agent, he isn't vital to our success as our club, his improvement hasn't been as rapid as a few similarly priced and aged guys around him and he occupies a part of our list in terms of player profiling that we are probably best stocked in (although he has pace, which is something we don't have in abundance).
Hopefully it doesn't come to that, but that's my view of the situation currently.
Just as a side note, is Cameron Wood contracted? He'd surprisingly probably be on similar money to Wellingham and I know who I'd prefer to keep. |
Don't agree on your comment on Johnson. He'd be on a minimum of $300K.
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"There have been injuries and deaths in boxing, but none of them serious." (Alan Minter) |
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Brenny
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
Location: Westpac Centre
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| I'd agree about Johno being on about 300k. Albeit 50% of that would be out of the cap... provided that the cap still works the same way as previous years. |
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ClokingDevice
Joined: 14 May 2012
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| Invigoration wrote: | | ClokingDevice wrote: | | Piesnchess wrote: | | I have a notion that, if we can win the flag, that Johnno and didak will retire, so wouldnt that make the room in our cap to accomodate Beams. ? |
A flag and Jolly and Tarrant would retire too, and that would get us across the line easily you'd think |
These comments always make me laugh. |
Wow you the worst sense of humour in the world then 
_________________
We will feast on their bones |
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leonmagic 
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
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for those who are saying beams doesn't owe us anything...you're wrong. the club has stood by him through more than one significant indiscretion. nothing too serious, but some pretty ordinary stuff.
he owes us, and he knows it. he'll be staying. 100%. he's a very loyal guy. |
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roar
Joined: 01 Sep 2004
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Considering compensation for losing Trav is terribly inadequate, and Reid is in high demand, while possibly being injury prone, maybe we should be looking at trading him for a couple of first rounders. Keeffe's form this year is also another reason this could be an ok result for us.
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kill for collingwood! |
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swoop42 
Whatcha gonna do when he comes for you?
Joined: 02 Aug 2008
Location: The 18
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I'd be prepared to lose Wellingham to keep Beams.
I'd be prepared to lose Harry to keep Reid.
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He's mad. He's bad. He's MaynHARD! |
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Brenny
Joined: 05 Apr 2011
Location: Westpac Centre
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I don't want to lose Wellingham.
I'd rate him as one of our 'CGU Unsung Heroes'. |
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Skids 
Quitting drinking will be one of the best choices you make in your life.
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Location: Joined 3/6/02 . Member #175
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I've been offered more coin but i'm happy where i am so i'm staying put.
Your surroundings, if enjoyable, are priceless. Anyone wants to go, bye bye, shut the gate on your way out thanks and life goes on 
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Don't count the days, make the days count. |
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ClokingDevice
Joined: 14 May 2012
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In the modern game if it comes down to giving up Wellingham or forcing retirement on a couple of vets then that's an easy choice, youth and speed all the way
Reasons Wellingham would be one of the few I wouldn't want to lose
1: Speed
2: Can be the playmaker off half back
3 Can tag and shut down opposition stars
4: Has developed into a dangerous forward with marking and goal kicking skills
It's an impressive CV when you consider all the above is seperate to his main job being part of the midfield rotations
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We will feast on their bones |
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jack_spain 
Joined: 03 May 2008
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| Post subject: Re: Caro nuts Harry for Beamsy | |
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| ClokingDevice wrote: | Hutchy saying we only have about $275,000 for Beams without letting someone go.. other clubs will offer high 400's
Caro says we will lose someone to keep both Cloke and Beams and said "you'd think Harry O" |
I could live with that. |
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Invigoration
Joined: 22 Sep 2010
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| Trezegol wrote: |
Don't agree on your comment on Johnson. He'd be on a minimum of $300K. |
Kidding yourself mate. Leon Davis got offered 250k last year on the back of an AA selection and top 5 B&F finish. Johnson probably hasn't finished top 10 in our B&F for 5 years.
300k would be the upper limit of what Ben Johnson was on, certainly not his minimum. Even so, 100k (Tarrant)-300k (BJ at best) is relative peanuts in the scheme of the players we are talking about. 300k does what? Allows us to cover Cloke's raise and that's about it? What about the only 5-8 blokes that are/have chased hefty raises this year?
_________________
Brown re his GF omission:
"It’s not about me & it never has been. It’s about the team & it’s about Collingwood & it’s about the 22 other blokes out there on the park. That’s all that matters to me" |
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Invigoration
Joined: 22 Sep 2010
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| ClokingDevice wrote: |
Wow you the worst sense of humour in the world then |
I'll rest easy knowing that I'm at least I'm not last in the world grammatically 
| ClokingDevice wrote: | | In the modern game if it comes down to giving up Wellingham or forcing retirement on a couple of vets then that's an easy choice, youth and speed all the way |
I think you're struggling to wrap your head around the concept of contracts. Who are you suggesting we force into retirement? Johnson and Tarrant are the only two guys over 30 that aren't contracted. If we force Jolly or Didak into retirement, we still have to pay their salary next year and it still takes up space in our salary cap.
_________________
Brown re his GF omission:
"It’s not about me & it never has been. It’s about the team & it’s about Collingwood & it’s about the 22 other blokes out there on the park. That’s all that matters to me" |
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