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jackcass 
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Big Dan wrote: | Yes injuries have been bad but they also crippled the side in the back half of 2014 & 2015. A fair chunk of these were not soft tissue but collision/degenerative injuries.
At what point do you start coaching for the team you have, not the team you want?
Injuries are not the reason for the uncompetitive slop being put forward. They are an excuse. |
Coach the same game plan at AFL and VFL levels. Players are well drilled in it. Issue is that a Phillips type can't be expected to come into the seniors and replicate the contribution of an Adams or Fasolo. There logically has to be a drop in performance. Multiply that by 5 or 6 or 7 (depending on your rating of players) best 22 players into what is essentially a developing team and you get these results. |
Yeah, that's true that Phillips shouldn't even be running around in the senior team. So what are five former premiership players doing running around in the reserves? No wonder we won our VFL game against top opposition. The idea though is to have your most experienced players playing in the AFL, not the VFL. This is totally ridiculous and no wonder the Collingwood supporters are frustrated to the point of no longer wanting to go to games. This is fast becoming a farce where a young novice or rookie scores a senior game at the expense of a senior, former premiership player. Is it any wonder our senior side is losing? |
I agree, Phillips probably shouldn't be getting senior exposure at this stage of his development but he earned it due to great form. Are you suggesting that we play some name player on name rather than play the form player from the feeder comp? Phillips can't be held accountable for their poor form. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | And Hafey had lost the players. Not 1 iota of evidence to suggest Bucks in in the same boat. |
Not for the 10 or so first and second year players who are scoring games at the expense of the former senior premiership players who are languishing in the reserves. They must all love him. |
If they want to play seniors then they need to earn their places. Bucks gives a kid with good VFL form a run and we're supposed to lament the fact that senior players with poor form aren't getting games? |
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think positive 
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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Poor form by who's standards?
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| jackcass wrote: | | BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Big Dan wrote: | Yes injuries have been bad but they also crippled the side in the back half of 2014 & 2015. A fair chunk of these were not soft tissue but collision/degenerative injuries.
At what point do you start coaching for the team you have, not the team you want?
Injuries are not the reason for the uncompetitive slop being put forward. They are an excuse. |
Coach the same game plan at AFL and VFL levels. Players are well drilled in it. Issue is that a Phillips type can't be expected to come into the seniors and replicate the contribution of an Adams or Fasolo. There logically has to be a drop in performance. Multiply that by 5 or 6 or 7 (depending on your rating of players) best 22 players into what is essentially a developing team and you get these results. |
Yeah, that's true that Phillips shouldn't even be running around in the senior team. So what are five former premiership players doing running around in the reserves? No wonder we won our VFL game against top opposition. The idea though is to have your most experienced players playing in the AFL, not the VFL. This is totally ridiculous and no wonder the Collingwood supporters are frustrated to the point of no longer wanting to go to games. This is fast becoming a farce where a young novice or rookie scores a senior game at the expense of a senior, former premiership player. Is it any wonder our senior side is losing? |
I agree, Phillips probably shouldn't be getting senior exposure at this stage of his development but he earned it due to great form. Are you suggesting that we play some name player on name rather than play the form player from the feeder comp? Phillips can't be held accountable for their poor form. |
I agree with you that Phillips earned his promotion and shouldn't be held accountable for his first up performance. But if we apply the same standards to other players, why has Goodyear been dropped twice now after only one game each time he was selected? How can Goodyear find any continuity in his game when he gets dropped each time he plays. And we don't know if Phillips is about to be dropped before the Freemantle game. Ideally, you want to drip feed the novices and rookies into the senior side while you have plenty of senior players around them to support them, telling them out on the field, where to run to and encouraging them out on the field. That hasn't been our way this year. It's been lambs to the slaughterhouse. |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| think positive wrote: | | Poor form by who's standards? |
Did you watch the games against Werribee and Williamstown?
It likely came down to a choice between Aish and Phillips for 1 spot. Both had better games than Macaffer (13 possessions, 2 tackles, 1 goal). Phillips had 33 possessions, 6 tackles, and kicked 3 goals. Aish had 25 possessions, 7 tackles, and kicked 1 goal. Phillips wins.
It likely came down to a choice between Brown and Marsh. Brown first game back from a hammy against Weribee, Marsh consistently good over a couple of games. Marsh wins.
It likely came down to a choice between Witts and Cloke. Witts has been among the best players for a number of weeks, had 45 hitouts against Werribee. Witts provides ruck support for Grundy allowing Cox to remain at FF. Clokes issues have been well documented. Witts wins.
It likely came down to a choice between Goldsack and Williams. Both only recently returned from injury. Williams started slow, built into the game against Werribee, had 26 possessions, 14 handball receives, provided great run and carry. Goldsack had 8 possessions and played a lock down role. Williams wins.
Does anyone actually think Goldsack, Cloke, Macaffer, Toovey and Brown should have actually been picked ahead of the players selected purely because they're senior players and premiership players?
Last edited by jackcass on Thu Jun 16, 2016 8:50 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | Big Dan wrote: | Yes injuries have been bad but they also crippled the side in the back half of 2014 & 2015. A fair chunk of these were not soft tissue but collision/degenerative injuries.
At what point do you start coaching for the team you have, not the team you want?
Injuries are not the reason for the uncompetitive slop being put forward. They are an excuse. |
Coach the same game plan at AFL and VFL levels. Players are well drilled in it. Issue is that a Phillips type can't be expected to come into the seniors and replicate the contribution of an Adams or Fasolo. There logically has to be a drop in performance. Multiply that by 5 or 6 or 7 (depending on your rating of players) best 22 players into what is essentially a developing team and you get these results. |
Yeah, that's true that Phillips shouldn't even be running around in the senior team. So what are five former premiership players doing running around in the reserves? No wonder we won our VFL game against top opposition. The idea though is to have your most experienced players playing in the AFL, not the VFL. This is totally ridiculous and no wonder the Collingwood supporters are frustrated to the point of no longer wanting to go to games. This is fast becoming a farce where a young novice or rookie scores a senior game at the expense of a senior, former premiership player. Is it any wonder our senior side is losing? |
I agree, Phillips probably shouldn't be getting senior exposure at this stage of his development but he earned it due to great form. Are you suggesting that we play some name player on name rather than play the form player from the feeder comp? Phillips can't be held accountable for their poor form. |
I agree with you that Phillips earned his promotion and shouldn't be held accountable for his first up performance. But if we apply the same standards to other players, why has Goodyear been dropped twice now after only one game each time he was selected? How can Goodyear find any continuity in his game when he gets dropped each time he plays. And we don't know if Phillips is about to be dropped before the Freemantle game. Ideally, you want to drip feed the novices and rookies into the senior side while you have plenty of senior players around them to support them, telling them out on the field, where to run to and encouraging them out on the field. That hasn't been our way this year. It's been lambs to the slaughterhouse. |
Where did I say it would be a good idea to drop Goodyear?
No it hasn't been our way this year. The squad is light on for established senior players and when you have a proportion of them either injured, returning from injury, or out of form, then someone has to play and the clear best choice is to play the best performed player from the VFL. |
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MatthewBoydFanClub
Joined: 12 Feb 2007
Location: Elwood
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| jackcass wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Poor form by who's standards? |
Did you watch the games against Werribee and Williamstown?
It likely came down to a choice between Aish and Phillips for 1 spot. Both had better games than Macaffer (13 possessions, 2 tackles, 1 goal). Phillips had 33 possessions, 6 tackles, and kicked 3 goals. Aish had 25 possessions, 7 tackles, and kicked 1 goal. Phillips wins.
It likely came down to a choice between Brown and Marsh. Brown first game back from a hammy against Weribee, Marsh consistently good over a couple of games. Marsh wins.
It likely came down to a choice between Witts and Cloke. Witts has been among the best players for a number of weeks, had 45 hitouts against Werribee. Witts provides ruck support for Grundy allowing Cox to remain at FF. Clokes issues have been well documented. Witts wins.
It likely came down to a choice between Goldsack and Williams. Both only recently returned from injury. Williams started slow, built into the game against Werribee, had 26 possessions, 14 handball receives, provided great run and carry. Goldsack had 8 possessions and played a lock down role. Williams wins.
Does anyone actually think Goldsack, Cloke, Macaffer, Toovey and Brown should have actually been picked ahead of the players selected purely because they're senior players and premiership players? |
Ok, when Cloke first got dropped he scored 2 goals and 2-3 goal assists. I don't have the stats in front of me for Cox, Moore and White who retained their spots in the team, but I'm happy for you to quote them here. Cloke's stats for that game he got dropped were at least as good, if not superior to the other three, yet he gets dropped. Then he gets dropped again after one game back where he doesn't score a goal, but takes 5-6 marks and has another 2-3 goal assists. I'm happy also to compare the stats for De Goey for a 3-5 game stretch before the Melbourne game, to stats for Macaffer playing in the VFL. Macaffer was named in the best for at least 2-3 of those games, but he doesn't get back into the senior team, while 3 first year players in Smith, Crocker and Phillips all get games. |
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piedys 
Heeeeeeere's Dyso!!!
Joined: 04 Sep 2003
Location: Resident Forum Psychopath since 2003
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| jackcass wrote: | | piedys wrote: | | And WCE? Put them onto the MCG, and all composure goes out the window. Thanks for comin'! |
Be very interesting to see how they go without NicNat over the next 6 or so weeks. If they can't secure a top 4 spot and lock in home finals then they're in for a world of pain come finals. |
Sure will - and no sympathy from us lot whatsoever.
And that's what they deserve after bending over in the 2015GF., and just gifting another flag to Whorethorn.
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M I L L A N E 4 2 forever |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| BucksIsFutureCoach wrote: | | Ok, when Cloke first got dropped he scored 2 goals and 2-3 goal assists. I don't have the stats in front of me for Cox, Moore and White who retained their spots in the team, but I'm happy for you to quote them here. Cloke's stats for that game he got dropped were at least as good, if not superior to the other three, yet he gets dropped. Then he gets dropped again after one game back where he doesn't score a goal, but takes 5-6 marks and has another 2-3 goal assists. I'm happy also to compare the stats for De Goey for a 3-5 game stretch before the Melbourne game, to stats for Macaffer playing in the VFL. Macaffer was named in the best for at least 2-3 of those games, but he doesn't get back into the senior team, while 3 first year players in Smith, Crocker and Phillips all get games. |
Won't get an argument from me. I was 1 of the few saying that if you're looking at dropping a player on form and contribution to the total team effort, Cloke should be last on the list. I doubt that was why he was dropped, think it was more to do with attitude and work rate. If it was form and contribution then Moore would/should have been the 1 to go.
Caff v De Goey a different discussion. Caff has had 2x senior games averaging 8.5 possessions, 0goals, 0.5 behinds, 4.5 tackles. De Goey meanwhile has been averaging just under 20 possessions a game, has kicked 8-9 season to date and averages just under 4 tackles a game. Even at VFL level Caff isn't racking up those sorts of figures. Sadly, I think senior footy has passed Caff by, he was never quick but he's even slower post ACL.
For the record:
R10 v Casey 16 possessions, 0-0, 10 tackles
R09 v Werribee 13 possessions, 1-0, 2 tackles
R08 v BYE
R07 v Willi 26 possessions, 1-0, 6 tackles
Been okay without taking games apart and if you compare the players stats who get promoted ahead of him they are better. |
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think positive
Side By Side
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Location: somewhere
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| jackcass wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Poor form by who's standards? |
Did you watch the games against Werribee and Williamstown?
It likely came down to a choice between Aish and Phillips for 1 spot. Both had better games than Macaffer (13 possessions, 2 tackles, 1 goal). Phillips had 33 possessions, 6 tackles, and kicked 3 goals. Aish had 25 possessions, 7 tackles, and kicked 1 goal. Phillips wins.
It likely came down to a choice between Brown and Marsh. Brown first game back from a hammy against Weribee, Marsh consistently good over a couple of games. Marsh wins.
It likely came down to a choice between Witts and Cloke. Witts has been among the best players for a number of weeks, had 45 hitouts against Werribee. Witts provides ruck support for Grundy allowing Cox to remain at FF. Clokes issues have been well documented. Witts wins.
It likely came down to a choice between Goldsack and Williams. Both only recently returned from injury. Williams started slow, built into the game against Werribee, had 26 possessions, 14 handball receives, provided great run and carry. Goldsack had 8 possessions and played a lock down role. Williams wins.
Does anyone actually think Goldsack, Cloke, Macaffer, Toovey and Brown should have actually been picked ahead of the players selected purely because they're senior players and premiership players? |
If you mean last week, yes Cloke should have been selected, and so should brown. We needed Clokes strength, and he was not the worst the week before, should not have been dropped.
_________________
You cant fix stupid, turns out you cant quarantine it either! |
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jackcass
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Location: Bendigo
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| think positive wrote: | | jackcass wrote: | | think positive wrote: | | Poor form by who's standards? |
Did you watch the games against Werribee and Williamstown?
It likely came down to a choice between Aish and Phillips for 1 spot. Both had better games than Macaffer (13 possessions, 2 tackles, 1 goal). Phillips had 33 possessions, 6 tackles, and kicked 3 goals. Aish had 25 possessions, 7 tackles, and kicked 1 goal. Phillips wins.
It likely came down to a choice between Brown and Marsh. Brown first game back from a hammy against Weribee, Marsh consistently good over a couple of games. Marsh wins.
It likely came down to a choice between Witts and Cloke. Witts has been among the best players for a number of weeks, had 45 hitouts against Werribee. Witts provides ruck support for Grundy allowing Cox to remain at FF. Clokes issues have been well documented. Witts wins.
It likely came down to a choice between Goldsack and Williams. Both only recently returned from injury. Williams started slow, built into the game against Werribee, had 26 possessions, 14 handball receives, provided great run and carry. Goldsack had 8 possessions and played a lock down role. Williams wins.
Does anyone actually think Goldsack, Cloke, Macaffer, Toovey and Brown should have actually been picked ahead of the players selected purely because they're senior players and premiership players? |
If you mean last week, yes Cloke should have been selected, and so should brown. We needed Clokes strength, and he was not the worst the week before, should not have been dropped. |
So you'd be happy to lose Brown during a senior game with a hammy as he hadn't tested it at VFL level prior to getting his promotion?
I think people are just getting a tad too irrational purely because we're not playing well consistently. |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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Apr 14, 2012...
| Presti35 wrote: | ...
Still searching..... |
| inxs88 wrote: | | Love the way an old thread resonates 3 years later |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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Aug 23, 2014
| Presti35 wrote: | ...
Still searching..... |
| inxs88 wrote: | | Love the way an old thread resonates 3 years later |
P35, what have you lured me into? |
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K
Joined: 09 Sep 2011
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Jun 13, 2016
| Presti35 wrote: | ...
Still searching..... |
| inxs88 wrote: | | Love the way an old thread resonates 3 years later |
inxs, hope you can provide cover when the valcono erupts. |
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