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stui magpie 
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Some comments from the horses mouth so to speak, Alan Joyce himself.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/absurd-to-say-the-airline-is-abandoning-australia/story-e6frfhqf-1226181881200
Edited highlights:
| Quote: | THE decision made yesterday by Fair Work Australia means certainty for Qantas customers and all our employees.
Certainty is one thing that has been absent in recent months as three unions have taken industrial action against Qantas.
By Friday, this action had cost Qantas close to $70 million at a rate of $15 million a week. A total of 70,000 passengers had been affected by cancelled and rescheduled flights.
With no prospect of a resolution any time soon - two union leaders spoke about industrial action possibly continuing for another year - I had to consider the potential impact on our business and our customers.
In a year's time, if industrial action had continued to escalate, Qantas' operations could have been reduced by half. Clearly this would have had major implications for jobs in all parts of the company, not to mention the ripple effect throughout the Australian economy. |
| Quote: | It is incorrect to say that Qantas was not offering its employees pay rises in the negotiations with these three unions. We have always been willing to negotiate on this and offer reasonable pay increases.
The reason we have not been able to reach an agreement is because each of the three unions has made demands that would hand over control of some of the airline to the unions. They are demands that would make it impossible for us to keep up with the big foreign carriers. The licensed engineers' union want us to keep old ways of working that other airlines have left behind, while the pilots' union wants us to pay Jetstar pilots the same wages as Qantas pilots. |
| Quote: | It is also incorrect to say that Qantas is "offshoring" and sending jobs to Asia. ........ We are making a number of changes, including retiring some aircraft and withdrawing from some routes.
As a result, there will be around 1000 redundancies.
BUT these jobs are not going "offshore" - they simply will not exist any more. |
| Quote: | | Qantas employs over 30,000 people in Australia, in every state and territory, across more than 250 different roles. The vast majority of our employees will continue to be based in Australia. We do 90 per cent of our heavy maintenance in this country. No other airline does any heavy maintenance here. |
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Pied Piper 
Joined: 20 May 2003
Location: Pig City
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Paul Barry is one of the best and most experienced journalists in Australia and his quick guide to what's actually going down here strips away a lot of the bullshit and puts the dispute in plain terms.
| Paul Barry wrote: | The Qantas drama involves many of the key people we're following on The Power Index. But what's this dispute actually about, and what are the stakes for those involved?
What's it about?
There are three different unions in dispute with Qantas, representing pilots, engineers and ground staff. Essentially, all are fighting the same battle, which is to hang on to their Qantas conditions of service and well-paid Qantas jobs as management tries to cut costs.
What does Qantas management want?
Qantas management wants to slash labour costs, particularly on international routes, where the airline is supposedly losing $200 million a year. It wants to do this in a number of ways. First is to set up a new offshore hubpossibly with a new premium airlinewhere pay rates would be lower, shifts longer and conditions more "flexible". Qantas has done this already to a degree by employing pilots for its trans-Tasman route in New Zealand and paying them one third less than in Australia. It has also done this with Jetstar flight attendants based in Thailand who face 20-hour shifts, and whose conditions have been criticised as "slave labour".
Qantas also cuts costs by running code-share flights with Jetstar, and paying pilots at Jetstar rates. By increasing the use of code-share arrangements, domestically and internationally, it can extend lower pay rates to an increasing share of its business. But it doesn't necessarily cut fares.
In Australia, Qantas wants the right to employ contract labour ground staff to meet demand peaks. The TWU appears to have accepted this, but is demanding that the contract hire companies are unionised.
It's about the right to manage
The Qantas board (and the Institute of Public Affairs) say the dispute is about management's right to manage. And our friends at Business Spectator agree. But Qantas managers want to cut pay rates, change work practices, take jobs offshore and increase profits by lowering labour costs. In those circumstances, it's surely legitimate for the unions want a say, because it's about the conditions under which they work.
It's all about union power
Some say it's all about union power. And for Tony Sheldon and the TWU it may well be. But unlike the famous fights in the mining industry, where employees had plenty to gain from higher pay rates, employees in Qantas will lose from the changes that management want to make.
It's the only way Qantas can stay in business
Qantas claims its international operations are losing $200 million a year. Clearly, that can't continue. But not all the changes it's afterparticularly those involving the TWUare confined to international operations. Introducing contract labour to handling of domestic planes has nothing to do with the viability of the airline.
Which side will Fair Work Australia support?
If the disputes remain unsolved after 21 days, Fair Work Australia has the power to impose a settlement. But don't assume it will split the difference between the sides. While the Australian Industry Group is complaining that FWA is entenching union power, Qantas would take heart from a decision in September where FWA refused to apply Qantas conditions to pilots employed at lower rates by the airline's New Zealand subsidiary. It may well take that view again.
How about sharing the pain?
The Qantas dispute is part of an age-old battle between labour and capital. And there's no doubt who is winning. Take a look at these charts from Business Insider, which show CEO pay in the USA is now 350 times average earnings, while corporate profits and unemployment are at record highs and the share of wages in the economy is at record lows. It's not just Alan Joyce that's getting a 71% pay rise for making his workforce take less.
How about sharing the gain?
We all know Qantas passengers have been victims of this dispute. But that's not the only way they're losing out. Qantas made an underlying profit of $500 million last year, which translates to $700 million on its domestic operations. So why aren't passengers getting some of that in lower fares? And will Qantas pass on any future cost savingsat employees' expenseto the public? Or will it just hand it to its shareholders and management? |
http://www.thepowerindex.com.au/guidebook/paul-barry-s-guide-to-the-qantas-dispute/20111031632
Interesting article, as you would say Stui.
_________________
"The greatest thing that could happen to the nation is when we get rid of all the media. Then we could live in peace and tranquillity, and no one would know anything." - Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen |
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watt price tully 
Joined: 15 May 2007
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Excellent article Pied Piper.
Paul Barry is independent.
He is an excellent journalist & a top notch investigative journalist.
_________________
âI even went as far as becoming a Southern Baptist until I realised they didnât keep âem under long enoughâ Kinky Friedman |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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| Pied Piper wrote: |
In Australia, Qantas wants the right to employ contract labour ground staff to meet demand peaks. The TWU appears to have accepted this, but is demanding that the contract hire companies are unionised.
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Isn't that a breach of the freedom of association provisions of the fair work act?
And yeah, the rest of it is a pretty fair summation.
I'm not sure the argument about passing on lower costs to the consumers washes though. Costs don't equate to charges much as we'd like them to, market forces determine the price that companies charge. If they lower costs, don't expect prices to come down. Profit will increase and be passed on to shareholders.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Black_White
Joined: 19 Mar 2001
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For stui
| Quote: | How about sharing the pain?
The Qantas dispute is part of an age-old battle between labour and capital. And there's no doubt who is winning. Take a look at these charts from Business Insider, which show CEO pay in the USA is now 350 times average earnings, while corporate profits and unemployment are at record highs and the share of wages in the economy is at record lows. It's not just Alan Joyce that's getting a 71% pay rise for making his workforce take less. |
Thought you must have missed that part. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
I didn't miss it. It was included when I said above that the article was a pretty fair summation.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Black_White
Joined: 19 Mar 2001
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Yet you chose to quote only the bit, and it was only one bit, that supported your union bashing.
You know stui, I'm constantly amazed at the people who have children, and their children have or are planning children, who think a non unionised Australia would be a good thing for these kids.
I suppose when they are offered jobs at 5 bucks an hour with no overtime penalties and no annual leave or sick benefits, the reality will set in.
Be to late then of course. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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Whatever floats your boat and supports your theories.
I quoted 1 part and flagged a query about it's legality and said the rest was a fair summation.
I didn't see the need to quote each part I either agreed with or had no issue with to say "I agree". 
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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Black_White
Joined: 19 Mar 2001
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So no comment about the rest of my post?
Maybe it's got you thinking for a change. |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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I'm not bothering with the rest of your post because if it's addressed to me, you completely misread my views and I CBF trying to educate you.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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sq3
Joined: 30 Mar 2004
Location: Gold Coast/Tampa
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B&W - I don't Stui is union bashing and we would not want to work where the employer has total control - just as we don't want to return to the old BLF era.
The hard part is to find the common middle ground where everyone is happy.
I still find it hard to understand how I can get a flight to JFK and my bags are at the carousel (or a max of 1 minute late) when I get there - yet I always have to wait up to 30 minutes on an Australian domestic flight.
Last flight to the USA - after getting through customs in LA (5 min) bags were there in 2 min (7 min all up).
Flight back to Brisbane - 15 min to get through customs and 20 min waiting for bags (35 in all up).
How can the USA baggage handlers get it right and the Australian ones get it just so wrong ???
_________________
Coaches give you direction but skills win you matches. |
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HAL
Please don't shout at me - I can't help it.
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
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| Oh that part. What makes it hard? |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| sq3 wrote: | | MJ23 wrote: | | sq3 wrote: | My last QANTAS flight was 5 years ago - our company changed to Virgin for domestic and internationl at the time and we have never looked back.
Much better service, better prices and better loyalty program.
I do think QANTAS will be downsized or totally JetStar run in the very near future.
One of their most profitable (if not the most) was the LA business class route when they were protected - now Virgin is on that route every day.
Both sides are to blame - QANTAS and TWU. |
Was both Virgin and Qantas FF
Am now only Qantas and have had much better experiences although at times both have let me down.
Like the Qantas club best. |
Last QANTAS filght had to pay excess bagage for golf clubs - so tried Virgin - no extra charge.
Simple things like that have our company and family flying on Virgin.
Virgin Silver anf flying to the US many times a year - baggage allownace 63kg - nice. |
shit
your right, its things like this that make you change companies however Ive never had this problem with qantas.
surf boards, car seats and signed collingwood framed premiership jumpers  - never been charged
might be my qantas club membership - didnt think so though
_________________
"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan
Last edited by MJ23 on Tue Nov 01, 2011 7:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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MJ23
Joined: 28 Feb 2011
Location: Sydney
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| stui magpie wrote: | Some comments from the horses mouth so to speak, Alan Joyce himself.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/absurd-to-say-the-airline-is-abandoning-australia/story-e6frfhqf-1226181881200
Edited highlights:
| Quote: | THE decision made yesterday by Fair Work Australia means certainty for Qantas customers and all our employees.
Certainty is one thing that has been absent in recent months as three unions have taken industrial action against Qantas.
By Friday, this action had cost Qantas close to $70 million at a rate of $15 million a week. A total of 70,000 passengers had been affected by cancelled and rescheduled flights.
With no prospect of a resolution any time soon - two union leaders spoke about industrial action possibly continuing for another year - I had to consider the potential impact on our business and our customers.
In a year's time, if industrial action had continued to escalate, Qantas' operations could have been reduced by half. Clearly this would have had major implications for jobs in all parts of the company, not to mention the ripple effect throughout the Australian economy. |
| Quote: | It is incorrect to say that Qantas was not offering its employees pay rises in the negotiations with these three unions. We have always been willing to negotiate on this and offer reasonable pay increases.
The reason we have not been able to reach an agreement is because each of the three unions has made demands that would hand over control of some of the airline to the unions. They are demands that would make it impossible for us to keep up with the big foreign carriers. The licensed engineers' union want us to keep old ways of working that other airlines have left behind, while the pilots' union wants us to pay Jetstar pilots the same wages as Qantas pilots. |
| Quote: | It is also incorrect to say that Qantas is "offshoring" and sending jobs to Asia. ........ We are making a number of changes, including retiring some aircraft and withdrawing from some routes.
As a result, there will be around 1000 redundancies.
BUT these jobs are not going "offshore" - they simply will not exist any more. |
| Quote: | | Qantas employs over 30,000 people in Australia, in every state and territory, across more than 250 different roles. The vast majority of our employees will continue to be based in Australia. We do 90 per cent of our heavy maintenance in this country. No other airline does any heavy maintenance here. |
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why wouldnt qantas management want to let the unions help run them ?
Theyve done such a good job running the country 
_________________
"Even when Im old and gray, I wont be able to play but Ill still love the game"
Michael Jordan |
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stui magpie
Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
Joined: 03 May 2005
Location: In flagrante delicto
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^
LOL, not touching that one.
_________________
Every dead body on Mt Everest was once a highly motivated person, so maybe just calm the **** down. |
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